Tier 3 to Top Tier 1 Jump Possible?

Chance Me / Match Me!
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<p>Hello,
I graduated with an undergraduate degree in English (summa cum laude, cum laude, GPA 3.93) from a tier 3 state college. After working for 13 years at a Fortune 500 company, I went back for my MBA (working full-time – attended night school) from yet another tier-3, AACSB-accredited, state university (GPA 3.96, awarded two small business scholarships, and was given the “Top MBA Graduate Student of 2009” award). Next, I’m going to pursue a Ph.D. in Marketing. I have yet to take the GMAT; however, I’m doing well in my current Kaplan course. Here’s the first question: since I attended two tier 3 schools in my undergrad and graduate programs, will this hurt my chances of getting into a top, tier-1 Ph.D. program (e.g., Stanford, Wharton, et cetera)? I’ve heard the term “Ivy begets Ivy.” Does this term mean that I am doomed to live a life of tier-3 mediocrity based on my humble beginnings?
Also, if I don’t get into one of the top-10, tier 1 programs, will I still have the same teaching opportunities if I were to attend a lesser-ranked tier 1 programs (e.g., University of North Carolina).
Finally, I’m also legally handicapped woman. Will this hurt my chances?
Thanks in advance for your advice and sagacity!
Lisa</p>

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<p>There are plenty of kids from 3rd tier colleges in top grad programs. As you’ve clearly stood out in both of your programs, you’d be a good candidate at any school with appropriate scores.</p>

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<p>Yes. Business programs are very small at the PhD level - most programs admit 1 or 2 students a year (if any- some go 5-10 years between admissions). Further, schools are bombarded with 800 GMAT / 800 Math GRE international students.</p>

<p>If you have a very high GMAT and GRE score, and can use the Fortune 500 experience to back up a research topic, you can potentially still make it to a lower Tier 1 school (someone in the 20-25 range). But you’ll have a much, much more difficult climb than someone from a Tier 1 school. Unless you’re published in an INFORMS journal already, you have virtually no shot at a Top 10 program. </p>

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It depends on the school. If you attend a school with no undergraduate program, you’ll get no teaching experience at that school. If you attend a private school with a top undergrad program (e.g. Wharton or Emory), you’ll get no teaching experience at that school. If you want to teach, look for a public school with an undergraduate program. Otherwise, look for a school relatively close to a university with an undergraduate business program but no PhD program (it’s common for some students from top programs to go to lower ranked programs to teach). </p>

<p>At the end of the day, though, no one will care. You’re hired based on research. They universities just care that you have shown some presentation ability.</p>

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<p>No.</p>

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<p>Well, I’ll put it to you this way. Christopher Small went to Benedictine College as an undergrad and is now a doctoral student at Harvard Business School.</p>

<p>[Biography</a> - Chris Small](<a href=“http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=bio&facEmId=rcsmall%40hbs.edu]Biography”>http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=bio&facEmId=rcsmall%40hbs.edu)</p>

<p>Zeshawn Beg did his undergrad at Michigan State and is now a doctoral student at Harvard Business School.</p>

<p>[Zeshawn</a> Beg - LinkedIn](<a href=“http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/pub/zeshawn-beg/5/379/937]Zeshawn”>http://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/pub/zeshawn-beg/5/379/937)</p>

<p>Granted, I don’t know that Benedectine or Michigan State count as tier 3 schools per se. Nevertheless, these are not exactly the most prestigious of schools. Furthermore, these guys made it to Harvard. That surely means that there is a chance that somebody from a tier-3 school can still make it to a top-tier doctoral program. </p>

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<p>Well, that’s a very tall order. There are people who’ve worked as junior faculty at top schools who hadn’t yet published in an INFORMS journal. </p>

<p>Not to continue to use Harvard Business School as an example, but take Zeynep Ton. She’s been junior faculty at HBS since 2002. Yet she didn’t even produce an INFORMS publication until 2008 (in Org Science). Nor was it the case that she was simply publishing in non-INFORMS academic literature, as that Org Science piece was her very first ever academic publication. {Publications in HBR and CMR do not count as academic papers.} </p>

<p><a href=“http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=pub&facEmId=zton@hbs.edu[/url]”>http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=pub&facEmId=zton@hbs.edu&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Now, to be fair, she did give birth to 2 kids, so she has been on a lot of maternity leave. But still, the point stands that not only had she never produced an INFORMS or any other kind of academic publication before she started her doctoral program, she spent a whopping 11 years at Harvard Business School (5 as a doctoral student, then another 6 as an assistant prof) without publishing a single academic paper. Nor is that necessarily symptomatic of a problem with her. I think it bespeaks more to a problem with the management academic literature: it is exceedingly difficult to actually successfully publish anything.</p>

<p>Lest you think that she’s an outlier, I would point to Noel Watson, also of Harvard Business School. He’s been at the school since 2002, yet didn’t publish an academic paper until 2005. Note, HBS Working Knowledge does not count as an academic publication, nor does a book chapter. Deishin Lee joined in 2004, and didn’t publish anything until her 2007 paper in Information Systems Research. </p>

<p>[Publication</a> - Noel H. Watson](<a href=“http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=pub&facEmId=nwatson%40hbs.edu]Publication”>http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=pub&facEmId=nwatson%40hbs.edu)</p>

<p>[Publication</a> - Deishin Lee](<a href=“http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=pub&facEmId=dlee%40hbs.edu]Publication”>http://drfd.hbs.edu/fit/public/facultyInfo.do?facInfo=pub&facEmId=dlee%40hbs.edu)</p>

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<p>First of all, HBS (and Cambridge, for that matter) are unique cases. It’s a very, very practice-oriented program which is nothing like most of the other top business schools. You can get tenure at HBS without a single academic publication as long as you’re frequently cited in the popular press, they’ll admit PhD students with low scores and from 3rd tier schools if they’ve made an impact in the business world (making partner at McKinsey is the easiest way to get in there), and their research is very practice (and case) focused. This is further confused by the existence of the DBA and PhD programs in the same school.</p>

<p>I also won’t go into this issue, as it is a bit taboo, but there’s also a situation of what Harvard does with Harvard graduates that can’t find Top 25 placements.</p>

<p>Pull stats for schools like Notre Dame, INSEAD, Wharton, etc. It’s a very different situation.</p>

<p>With that said, Michigan State isn’t a 3rd tier school. Case Studies are academic works that are peer reviewed (in the research cycle, case and field studies identify phenomenons and their causes, exploratory analysis evaluates the causality and forms hypotheses, and confirmatory analysis evaluates the hypotheses and the predictive validity, which leads to new case and field studies.</p>

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<p>I understand: the business A journals have only a 5% acceptance rate. The thing is, business schools have low expectations of the required number of publications for tenure (usually 6-8) compared to engineering schools (20+) because of the high bar to publish, so that is self-correcting. And from a results standpoint, what is published in business journals is usually of very high quality, adding substantially to the field of knowledge.</p>

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<p>Hello again,
Thank you for your answers. May I ask: what are your credentials? Are either of you on admissions committees at tier-one schools? Where are you getting your information? I don’t mean to be rude, but I was hoping to get some solid information from this website from experienced professionals – not just fellow student supposition and conjecture (as I’ve found so much of it already on the Internet).
Thanks,
Lisa</p>