TIME Article: What's Wrong with Our High Schools?

Parents Forum
181

<p>
[quote]
I don't think there are plenty of jobs that someone can work for a lifetime that do not require a high school diploma

[/quote]
</p>

<p>EK: Do you mean a high school diploma or a high school education? </p>

<p>
[quote]
but now I've done some research and decided that good vocational programs are the key to reducing the drop out rate.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree. We had a high school principal whose devotion to equality led her not only to put students who read at 6th grade level and students who read at 12th grade level in the same heterogeneous classes but also tried to do away with our vocational program. Thankfully, honors classes have been restored, and the vocational program rebuilt. We also have in a nearby district one of the best vocational schools in the country. And a good proportion of its graduates actually go on to college (including, I was told, to MIT).</p>

<p>When I went to school, tracking began at 11+ (6th grade). Since 1999, French students can get a diploma at 10th grade and stop, or go on to either a college track or a vocational track. This is much saner than the system prevailing in my days. And it recognizes that not everyone wants or needs to go to university.</p>

182

<p>marite:</p>

<p>Now that I've spent way more time than I should reading about the French education system, I can understand what you are arguing for, but you really cannot compare the French system to the system in the US. By the time students are awarded the French high school diploma, all the low-performing and under-achieving, not to mention learning disabled, students have been weeded out and put on their own track to whatever certificate they will end up with. The high school diploma in France and in the US are not equivalent. You might think they should be but they are not. In France, the high school diploma is awarded to the top students but that has never been the case in the US. Plenty of students on the vocational track have earned a high school diploma in the past and what I object to is changing the rules for those students. Students that go through a vocational program deserve to have certification and in our school system, that certification is a high school diploma.</p>

183

<p>Plenty of students on the vocational track have earned a high school diploma in the past and what I object to is changing the rules for those students. Students that go through a vocational program deserve to have certification and in our school system, that certification is a high school diploma.
Many jobs require not only a high school education, but a diploma- if you want to earn enough money to perhaps raise a family and buy a home, it is more likely that you will need a bachelors degree.</p>

<p>There are so many educated workers in our area that having a BA or not, is one way to week out applicants.
Even Amazon requires a BA to work in the warehouse sorting book orders- I htink that is ridiculous frankly, but as the education level of workers in UW goes up, those without will find themselves even farther behind
<a href="http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23%2D210.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23%2D210.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

184

<p>I like truth in advertising. A diploma ought to reflect what people think it ought to reflect. </p>

<p>I agree that more and more employers demand a high school diploma. But that's because they are dissatisfied with the educational levels of their employees. They thought that by doing so, they would get better educated employees. Instead, what seems to be discussed here is the devaluation of the meaning of a high school diploma in the name of employability.</p>

<p>I have no quarrel with different types of high school diplomas being issued, some for academic work, some for vocational training. I don't see what's so difficult about it. </p>

<p>If I were a bakery owner, I would prefer to get someone with a track record in culinary education than a string of APs. But an adcom at a LAC will want a high school diploma reflecting a more academic trajectory. </p>

<p>France is not the only country that has different types of diplomas. Britain, Germany, and many many other countries do as well.</p>

185

<p>


It depends on the college. At community college, it is algebra. At most selective 4 year colleges, it is calculus. That is why a college-prep track will at least offer math through trigonometry and precalculus. (At our local community colleges, these are advanced courses that students must test into). </p>

<p>For the most part, the kids we are talking about in this thread --the future mechanics, plumbers, typists, bridge-toll collectors, correctional officers, etc. of the world -- aren't going to 4-year colleges. Many will go straight to work after high school; others will go to community college. (By the way, if you want to have a career in California that is much in demand pays well, correctional officer is one -- growth industry, starting pay $2000/month, lots of overtime opportunities. And if we pass laws raising the bar and forcing more inner city kids to drop out of high school without a diploma, we should continue to need more of them.)</p>

<p>It seems to me that your arguments are rather selfish: your LD kids had problems with math, so you hired a private tutor. Therefore it should not be a problem for anyone. </p>

<p>Except we aren't talking about kids who have moms who can afford to pay for tutors. We are talking about kids in a school system that doesn't offer the support and help you are talking about. Again, we would do a lot better to improve the quality of educational support to meet existing requirements than to add on more.</p>

186

<p>


Adcom's at LAC's ask for high school transcripts, not diplomas. A high school diploma has never meant math through algebra II in the past, so your truth-in-advertising argument falls flat. You aren't arguing for a diploma that means what people think it means, you are arguing in favor of changing the rules to make diplomas harder to get.</p>

187

<p>Calmom:</p>

<p>I did look into the admissions requirements of colleges since my son was going to graduate early from high school. Some asked not only for a transcript but also for a diploma. I do not know how representative the schools that did not ask for a diploma are, but the schools are a highly selective and thus non-representative group anyway. For example, Stanford actively encourages homeschoolers to apply. </p>

<p>I have asked before, but no one has answered. What should a high school diploma testify to? That the holder of the diploma has spent 12 years in the educational system or that s/he has achieved some minimal
level of education?</p>

<p>By the way, there ain't such a thing as "college math." For prospective collee majors, the entry point is calculus or above. But for non-math majors, there's a huge variety of courses that satisfy the quantitative reasoning requirement. Most of those do not require calculus. </p>

<p>I am not one of those who advocate calculus for all, not even for those wanting to attend top schools. My older son did not do calculus in high school and went to a top LAC after being accepted to several other top LACs. He did, however, do four years of high school math, including pre-calc.</p>

188

<p>My point was that kids with learning disablities can learn math if properly taught
That isn't something that they are getting in many schools
I dont feel it is elitist to argue that they should have algebra at minimum for graduation- OR have had 4 years of math in high school.</p>

<p>We didn't have money for a tutor- Our income is about $60,000 before taxes- however- when your child is still stuck on addition and subtraction facts in middle school- and they are not getting it in the classroom you do what you have to do.
They don't teach long division here- and they don't really care if your child knows their mulitiplication facts in middle school or even knows how to tell time- those things seem to be pretty basic to be able to go out into the world.
Our state isn't even talking about raising the requirements for graduation for math.
Two years of anykind of math is the graduation requirement
But they do have the WASL as a graduation requirement- something that less than 50% of students pass all three sections.
Mass has similar problems
The MCAS is required for graduation and 1 out of 3 Hispanic students and 1 out of 4 African American students didn't even reach the 10th grade to take the exam.
How convienent that they aren't included in the drop out rate
I guess it is easier to insist that a high school diploma isn't required for an education or a job, than it is to give these students support so that they can pass 10th grade.</p>

<p>I think it is a waste of our tax dollars to not give students support they need for basic subjects while in the K-12 system.
And it is a waste of time and tuition money to have to take remedial classes in college.
<a href="http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-0511200357nov20,0,331164.story%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-0511200357nov20,0,331164.story&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read.php?id=old-1125326676%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.mnsu.edu/news/read.php?id=old-1125326676&lt;/a>
<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2002774205_math01n.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2002774205_math01n.html&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.nychold.com/oped-klein-040404.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nychold.com/oped-klein-040404.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>By 1998, 54 percent of all entering freshmen students in the 23-campus CSU system were so weak in math skills that they were required to enroll in remedial programs (the figures were similar for language skills). In March 2000, math specialists in Los Angeles Unified School District estimated that 60 percent of L.A.'s eighth-graders did not know the multiplication tables.</p>

189

<p>
[quote]
I guess it is easier to insist that a high school diploma isn't required for an education or a job, than it is to give these students support so that they can pass 10th grade.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>One ought not to preclude the other.</p>

190

<p>
[quote]
What should a high school diploma testify to?

[/quote]

The same as it always has.</p>

<p>Generally in the past that meant at least 2 years of high school math, 3 or 4 years of high school English, 2 years of a foreign language, 2 or 3 years of history or social studies, 2 years of a lab science. High school curriculums have always been structured so as to allow some flexibility in case a student needs to repeat a course or needs extra time to prepare; and to allow students to take more specialized electives during the last 2 years, including vocational courses. </p>

<p>The vast majority of high school grads in this country either go to work after graduating, go to community colleges, or join the military. Most spend their lives working at jobs that we wouldn't be willing to have our own kids do, but which are essential in order to allow us to function at our cushy desk jobs. </p>

<p>What you are arguing for is to deny these young workers even the dignity of the high school diploma their mothers and fathers could have. You don't want a high school diploma to mean what it once did: the completion of childhood education, preparing the indivual to become a productive, adult worker. You want to turn it into a college prep certification, to support privileged young adults in the extended period of adolescents that is part of the going-away-to-college track that the monied classes in our society follows. So that the "diploma" becomes one more demarcation of the haves vs. the have-nots in our society.</p>

191

<p>Fewer of the fathers and mothers had high school diplomas, so we're not talking the same thing. Childhood education? Are we talking about 18 years old or 14 years old? </p>

<p>In MA, the requirements are 3 years of high school math. So now, the discussion has to be about what constitutes high school math. In our district, as I've said before, algebra I is taught in 8th grade. If algebra II is not going to be a high school graduation requirement, what kind of math ought to follow oon algebra I? (I do know that many students repeat Algebra I in 9th grade, but presumably, they do not spend the next 3 years repeating it as well). </p>

<p>I have never said that high school should lead only to college. There's nothing wrong with a diploma certifying that someone has done vocational training. In fact, in many circumstances, it would be an advantage. The problem I see is that there is only one type of diploma available.</p>

192

<p>Nobody has really mentioned no child left behind.
MASS and WA have two of the strictest tests in the country and also have required those tests to recieve a diploma.
I don't have a problem with evaluating curriculum- I think that is important as is evaluating the mode and efficacy of instruction.
But teaching to the test I don't agree with, nor do I like to see students dropping out, before they take or after they fail the test.</p>

193

<p>EK:</p>

<p>I believe that MCAS, which is used to apply the NCLB policy, does not test up to Algebra II. It may test knowledge of Algebra I, however.</p>

194

<p>it looks like the MCAS is given in 10th grade- like the WASL which is also given in 10th grade and required for grad
Integrated 2 is 10th grade math-
I think that includes Algebra 1
I also don't understand that if a test is to determine if a student has learned what they need to in high school- why is it given in 10th grade?
Why not give it in 12th grade?</p>

195

<p>Marite, in California algebra is generally a standard 9th grade course, followed by geometry. Most high schools offer some sort of pre-algebra or practical math course for 9th graders who aren't ready for algebra. </p>

<p>So for an average student following a typical, non-college prep track, Algebra II would be an 11th grade course. </p>

<p>The UC & CSU systems requires 3 years of high school math, through Algebra II -- the level of math is what is important - so a student who takes algebra in 8th grade, then takes 2 years in high school with grades of C or better will qualify for admission. (This is what my daughter did; she did not take math after sophomore year because of her foreign exchange, but was still accepted at all UC campuses she applied to, including Berkeley). </p>

<p>As noted, math from algebra on up is also taught at the community colleges. In California, students can spend 2 years at community college and be guaranteed admission as transfers into the UC system if they meet certain course requirements. In order to qualify for transfer, the UC's require that cc students have one transferable college course in mathematics or quantitative reasoning. This would have to be a course beyond the level of high school algebra II. </p>

<p>I think it would be wonderful if all kids could go to college and all could complete a college prep high school curriculum. But I don't think that's realistic. And I really would like to see a high school diploma as something within the reach of the vast majority of students -- which means that it should be attainable by most kids whose intellectual ability falls on the bottom half of the bell curve. And some kids just have a very hard time with math. </p>

<p>Since California mandates education through age 18 or until high school graduation, our goal should be 100% graduation rate - while that is not feasible, a 90% graduation rate could be. And that means that there should be a set of requirements that the kids in the bottom 20% of the class can meet. </p>

<p>I also think that I would rather hire an employee who had done well in a business math course offered in high school and who understood the concepts, than one who had barely passed advanced algebra with only a tenuous grasp on concepts. I am very familiar with the level of instruction that goes on in public schools in our state, and I can assure you that kids are being passed out of high school math courses without the slightest clue as to what they are doing. If higher math courses are a graduation requirement, that just increases pressure on teachers to dumb down the course to ensure that the lower-end kids can pass.</p>

196

<p>Calmom:</p>

<p>From CA math teachers, it sounds like more and more districts are actually requiring algebra 1 in 8th grade. Kids who have been taught well in lower grades should be able to handle algebra in 8th grade. </p>

<p>A k-8 school in our district piloted the Algebra Project which is introduced in 6th grade. It was started by Robert Moses, then a parent, when he realized that not having mastered algebra was a key obstacle to having more African-Americans get into good colleges. A former Cvil Rights leader, he's expanded the Algebra Project to Mississpi.</p>

<p>The Algebra Project had a trickle-down effect on how math was taught in the lower grades, so that by the time the kids got to it, they were already familiar with its basic message and some parents felt it could have been introduced earlier, perhaps in 4th or 5th grade. </p>

<p>In our district, the high school math sequence (3 years) is Algebra 1 or 2; geometry, then algebra 2 or pre-calc. As I posted earlier, MCAS, which is the only firm graduation requirement, does not require Algebra 2. It is taken in 10th grade and students have five more opportunities to re-take it if they don't succeed at the first try.</p>

197

<br>


<br>

<p>From CA here. I applaud the CA middle schools' efforts in getting more middle school kids to take algebra. At our middle school, the high end math kids take Algebra 1A (first half of the book) in seventh grade with algebra 1B (2nd half of the book) taken in grade 8. All other students are required to take algebra 1A in eighth grade. </p>

<p>Are there some kids in 8th grade who can't grasp Algebra 1A? Yes. They re-take algebra 1A in grade 9 and have an easier time with it the second time around.</p>

198

<p>Algebra I was definitely not required in 8th grade in the school districts that my kids attended. Offered? Yes. Required? No.</p>

<p>The schools around here have bigger issues to worry about -- like funding cuts forcing layoffs & school closures, the schools having to serve students who speak dozens of languages, etc. The news today is that my daughter's teachers are <em>not</em> going on strike as of Monday - this is the second time this year that a strike has been narrowly averted. </p>

<p>Some interesting stats here (this is from 2 years ago, but I would be surprised if there was a significant change):
<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/06/04/BAGJ370QUK1.DTL%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/06/04/BAGJ370QUK1.DTL&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It just seems to me that the priorities should be on addressing the problems that already exist rather than simply imposing new requirements. My daughter had 42 kids in her algebra II class - I don't think putting more kids in that classroom would have been helpful to anyone. There isn't money to hire new teachers, nor space to put them in.</p>

199

<p>This discussion on the need for Alg II actually has a much wider ramification that affects the long-term competitive edge of US as a nation as evidenced from the following response from the National Research Council:</p>

<hr>

<p>Statement on President Bush's "American Competitiveness Initiative"
By Ralph J. Cicerone, President, National Academy of Sciences
Wm. A. Wulf, President, National Academy of Engineering
Harvey V. Fineberg, President, Institute of Medicine</p>

<p>Feb. 1, 2006</p>

<p>We applaud President Bush's announcement of the American Competitiveness Initiative in his State of the Union address. This initiative is an important step in what we hope will be a multiyear bipartisan commitment to enhance the nation's innovation system -- a system that can create jobs for all Americans in today's knowledge-based economy. Actions such as those proposed by President Bush and in Congress to increase federal funding for basic research -- including energy science and technology, improve K-12 math and science education, and enhance the climate for private investment in research and development are necessary to preserve America's high standard of living and its national and economic security.</p>

<p>In a world where advanced knowledge is widespread and low-cost labor readily available, U.S. science and technology advantages have been steadily eroding. The Academies' recent report Rising Above the Gathering Storm: Energizing and Employing America for a Brighter Economic Future points toward solutions and helped to inform President Bush's initiative. The report emphasizes an integrated package of recommendations to create new, high-quality jobs for all citizens by developing new industries based on new technologies. Our report reinforces similar recommendations that other responsible groups have advanced in recent years.</p>

<p>We appreciate the hard work by the committee of the National Academy of Sciences, National Academy of Engineering, and Institute of Medicine that produced the report under the chairmanship of Norman Augustine, and we are gratified that the Bush administration and a bipartisan alliance of congressional leaders have embraced many of our study's findings. We believe that implementing the entire package of recommendations in the report, including support for higher education, is crucial to ensuring America's competitiveness in the 21st century. We support the president's call to action.</p>

<h2>The challenges America faces do not lend themselves to overnight fixes or simple answers. Achieving these goals will require a long-term, bipartisan commitment from a broad range of people working together -- including scientists, engineers, health professionals, educators, politicians, and industry leaders. We stand ready to offer policymakers our help as the country tackles these complex issues.</h2>

<p>Read online at <a href="http://www.nap.edu/catalog/11463.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nap.edu/catalog/11463.html&lt;/a> about recommendations and implementation steps toward this end.</p>

200

<p>
[quote]
This discussion on the need for Alg II actually has a much wider ramification that affects the long-term competitive edge of US as a nation

[/quote]
Increased requirements don't help if the net result is more high school dropouts. </p>

<p>At least a kid who has the diploma can go back later on to pick up some pieces. The university extensions, as well as community coleges, offer a variety of math courses, geared specifically to individuals who have been out of school awhile and need a refresher in order to take college math. A young adult who has been in the work force awhile, or perhaps has done a stint in the military where he has also received some technical training, might be more motivated and able to catch up in his early 20's and get the college degree. But the dropout is far less likely to resume his education. </p>

<p>I think we need to focus on rescuing the kids who are in the water and drowning before we worry about building better ships. Its a triage approach to education which might not be the ideal -- but that's the way I see it. When 90% of the kids are staying in school and passing algebra and geometry, then we can start looking at making sure they go to the next level. But I'll bet that the majority of the dropouts haven't even passed geometry, much less moved on to algebra II.</p>