<p>zoosermom,</p>
<p>Algebra 2 was often called Algebra 2 and Trig. At least at my public HS in MA that what it was called.</p>
<p>K: You are confused as to what a high school diploma should mean. It My cleaning lady has the reading and writing ability of a 5th grader (she is not retarded). Would you award a high school diploma to a 5th grader? And if not, why would you want to award it to someone who, though older, cannot read any better than a 5th grader? What is the justification for it?</p>
<p>I feel a high school diploma should mean something- yes
but why would a district be allowed to let students get through school with only a 5th grade education?
There should be an uprising in the community!
What the F**! are teachers & parents doing if they aren't making sure our young people get an education!
If she isn't devlopmentally disabled ( and I know some who * are and have a higher level of education)- if she has a normal iq- then she is educable and it is societys reponsiblity and to its benefit to make sure that ALL of its citizens are educated.
If someone is applying to college- then colleges see their courses and test scores- if they aren't applying to college, they still need a certain level of classes & who knows?
They may want to apply to college next year or in 10 years.
Even 20 years- a diploma should mean something and since to earn a living nowdays you pretty much need a degree- we should damm sure insist on everyone receiving a high school diploma</p>
<p>If my cleaning lady was not able to function in society because of her reading and writing level- then I would feel that I would owe her the support to help her find the resources to continue her education.
If we value education- then we value it for all.
Not just for our kids & for their benefit</p>
<p>Okay, I'm going back on my decision not to contribute. </p>
<p>My cleaning lady is able to function in society: she has for the past 50+ years. I do not ask her or the people whom I have engaged for their high school diplomas. I ask for references. In the case of painters, I go look at the jobs they've done in my neighborhood. In the case of cabinet makers, I look at the samples of their work. Whether or not they have a high school diploma is totally irrelevant to me.</p>
<p>If people want to continue their education after dropping out of high school or never going to college, there are different paths. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I feel a high school diploma should mean something- yes
but why would a district be allowed to let students get through school with only a 5th grade education?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Change the wording to 8th grade math education, and I agree with you completely. But that is all what some posters seem to think is necessary to deserve a high school diploma.</p>
<p>Obviously, there should be standards for a high school diploma. "D is for Diploma" though, so a student who makes straight D's all the way through high school currently qualifies for that diploma. I don't believe that person is qualified for much, but my argument is for the average to above-average student who finds Algebra II to be a roadblock to their high school diploma. The average person in the US has an IQ of 98 (got that number by googling so take it with a grain of salt). There are two different arguments here: should Algebra II be required to graduate from high school and should an illiterate person be allowed to graduate from high school. I think Algebra II is a roadblock for the person of average to below-average intelligence who is not illiterate, so just that one class will hold a person back who would otherwise be productive. </p>
<p>As far as the track diplomas go, I don't think they are necessary because a transcript will be requested for people who go on to college. The college has their own requirements that a student is responsible for fulfilling. People who plan to go to college should know they need more than the minimum requirements of 2 science classes and 0 foreign language classes. I am in favor of certificates that say "I completed the day-care program" or the automotive program or food service or whatever.</p>
<p>My cleaning lady can read and write (or at least spell Windex) but she has a hard time making those "good choices" that you preach to your kids constantly. She's made bad choices in men to have her babies with, health care and health insurance problems, credit rating problems and a slew of other things. When I pay her, I'm usually 3 to 4 weeks ahead of her because of previous advances, but that's okay with me, I like her a lot and she does a great job cleaning my house. She has said to me on more than one occasion "I wish I was smart like you". She just doesn't have the brain power to figure out consequences of some of her actions. I give her a lot of advice because she asks for it and it is interesting to see her reaction to something that she never thought of that seems like common sense to me. You should be very thankful for your innate intelligence.</p>
<p>marite:</p>
<p>Algebra II is not 8th grade level math. Algebra I is 8th grade level math for advanced students. Most students take Algebra I in 9th grade in a high school that serves a broad population.</p>
<p>Marite:</p>
<p>To add to your veiws I garee with you that high school diploma should meam something. My kid was telling about a high school exam paper which was given to a an elite high school high graduating class sometime in early 1880s. Other than math, it has requirements in history, math, scince, english, foreign languages, geography, political scince and many more requirements. No answer was simple objective type where you have to choose between 4 options. The whole exam was based on two to three paragpah responses. Well the same exam was given to current high school kids, only 5 to 10% kids were able to pass alone. </p>
<p>Such is the dumming down of kids taking place in order to pass masses in classes. We are lowering standards in order to boost many kids. Thus more and more people are getting mass promotion through grade level, middle school and high school level. </p>
<p>People with high school diploma can not carry out many functions. What is the use of degree if skill level is missing. Look even Operah is now talking about it.</p>
<p>The problem are complex and people wants simple solutions which will produce not the desired results.</p>
<p>in schools that sort math by algebra- geo- advanced algebra
algebra is 8th gd math- it isn't advanced math
my D who has a math disbility ( and other LDs) took algebra in 8th gd- geometry in 9th- advanced algebra in 10th- precalc in 11th and stats in 12th
our school district on the other hand teaches math in a spiral where it is anybodys guess what is being taught and where the answer isn't so important</p>
<p>Izzie:</p>
<p>What I was trying to say was that, if Algebra II is not required for high school graduation, students will be able to receive a high school diploma with only Algebra I. In my district, Algebra I is taught in 8th grade. If people want American students to graduate with only an 8th grade math education, fine by me. Then watch jobs going abroad. </p>
<p>As for my cleaning lady, I value her a lot. She knows a great deal more about household matters than I will ever know. But I have never felt the slightest need to ask for her high school diploma; nor have I ever felt the need to ask whether the many people who have worked on my house over the years have one. A high school diploma is not necessary for a wide range of jobs, some of them quite well paying. </p>
<p>I don't know why there is an obsession with student getting high school diplomas as opposed to receiving a real education. Is that what some posters are arguing about? credentialling? I, for one, am arguing about education. A diploma is a piece of paper certifying that a student has received an education that is appropriate for a certain grade level. It is not an end in itself.</p>
<p>marite:</p>
<p>A high school diploma is VERY important for a person who is not going on to college to get a job. Students with Algebra I and Geometry have actually completed a 10th grade level of math and if you add in another class of math, such as consumer math or business math, the student has acquired enough math training for many jobs. You must be in high-achieving district to have all the students complete Algebra I in eighth grade. </p>
<p>If the student doesn't have the piece of paper, the credential, he/she is locked out of all but the lowest-paying jobs. If a student has all the necessary requirements except for Algebra II and can't get the piece of paper, he/she can't get a job, although he/she is trained for it. Education for education's sake is a concept for the elite and many people need high school for job training. Now imagine you have gone to 4 years of high school and are prepared for a job in a certain field and can't get a job in it because you can't pass Algebra II. This makes you into a high school dropout. </p>
<p>I know, to you, a high school diploma is no big deal. I remember graduating from high school and my grandmother flew in for the ceremony and I just thought that was silly, that HS graduation was not very important except that it meant I was on the way to next step, college. When my sophomore graduated from 8th grade, it was interesting to see how excited some of the parents were and truly, that might be the only graduation some of those kids get to attend.</p>
<p>"Students with Algebra I and Geometry have actually completed a 10th grade level of math and if you add in another class of math, such as consumer math or business math, the student has acquired enough math training for many jobs."</p>
<p>What about the kids that go through Geometry and, maybe, accounting or some such but also have APs in science, history, or English. What does one do with those kids? No diploma? I could see a requirement of four years of math, but must it necessarily be so specific?</p>
<p>Izzie:</p>
<p>If high school means completing 12 grades, then the high school diploma should reflect 12 years of education. If most people are happy with 10th- grade education, then there should be a 10th grade diploma. Plenty of countries have those. But let's not pretend that a 10th-grade education is the same as a 12th- grade education. Personally, I think there are plenty of jobs that do not require 12 years worth of education. </p>
<p>As for Algebra 1: my district is one of the lower performing districts in MA. But the requirement that Algebra 1 be covered in 8th grade is spreading to many more districts and many more states, including CA.</p>
<p>As for my cleaning lady, I value her a lot. She knows a great deal more *about household matters than I will ever know. But I have never felt the slightest need to ask for her high school diploma; nor have I ever felt the need to ask whether the many people who have worked on my house over the years have one. A high school diploma is not necessary for a wide range of jobs, some of them quite well paying. *</p>
<p>But let me try and explain where I am coming from
I have a GED certificate
I dropped out of high school- noone ever suggested I attend college or take the classes that would permit me to attend college ( namely the minimum language requirement- which is now beyond me)</p>
<p>The things I really enjoy doing require a college degree ( I most enjoyed working as a college advisor for my workstudy job- as a student- they didn't require the same background as they would have otherwise)
But to do it as a career I would need probably a grad degree.</p>
<p>I don't think there are plenty of jobs that someone can work for a lifetime that do not require a high school diploma</p>
<p>The jobs that are being created in this country- require more than a high school diploma
Lower skill jobs are being paid minimum wage- try and raise a family on that.
By not requiring a certain level of knowledge in high shcool, and by not being so concerned about the graduation rate- we are insuring we have walmart workers and cleaning ladies for generations.
How are these parents going to be able to help their kids- with homework, with let alone recognizing someone who should be in college.</p>
<p>The jobs that only require a diploma or none at all are often very physical dangerous jobs- what happens if you are injured or otherwise are not able do the job anymore?</p>
<p>What about retirement? What are the cleaning ladies going to do when they can't get down on their hands and knees? </p>
<p>The tech schools- or community colleges which will train workers for jobs will want a GED or high school diploma.
If you have been out of high school for a while, the GED test may be very intimidating- I don't know- but I would imagine it would be just another barrier.</p>
<p>I am for high school meaning something for all students- I am not thrilled about tracking but I recognize that some students are going to take way more AP classes than others.
BUt consider my youngest daughter
She was in SPED just a couple years ago- if she was in a school that made her jump through hoops to take advanced classes, she might be on the menial wage track- but she is taking AP classes and planning for college.
I think by allowing students to take low level classes we are allowing them to close doors on themselves.
My daughter chose a college, that had strict course requirements- her school ahs the philosophy that if students knew what a college education should consist of- they would be professors.
And we are willing to allow students to take minimal classes or drop out because they should have control over their education in high school?
Other countries don't allow students the freedom they have here to limit their future</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>If most people are happy with 10th- grade education, then there should be a 10th grade diploma. Plenty of countries have those. <<<<<</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>The teachers union would NEVER allow a 10th grade diploma. The only alternative they will accept is to have 12th grade vocational HS diploma. The first 10 grades are "scholastic" and the last two grades are concentrated towards learning a vocation (which might mean more math or science). This serves a dual purpose, it prepares those who are not "scholastic minded" for meaningful work that will pay more than minimum wage. And, it keeps minors "off the street" during the daytime hours which is what happens when kids drop out.</p>
<p>We can't compare the US to homogenous countries w/ strict immigration policies.</p>
<p>EK, we are not talking about allowing students to take "minimal" course work - this discussion is about raising the bar to require a third year of college-prep math. As a parent of a kid with an LD, I'd think you would be sympathetic to what this would do for kids with math-related learning disabilities. Some very smart kids struggle terribly with math. </p>
<p>I still can't figure out why I would care whether a secretary I hire or an electrician can solve a polynomial equation. We're not talking about eliminating standards -- we are talking about setting standards that equate to the real world. </p>
<p>Rather than raising the bar to turn a high school diploma into something different than it was in our generation and for our parents before us -- wouldn't it make more sense to focus on improving quality of instruction so that at least the kids who were enrolled in first year algebra and geometry actually learned what they were being taught? </p>
<p>Keep in mind that there are a lot of kids whose next step after the diploma is either to get a job or join the military. These are not college-bound kids. They benefit from a well-rounded education, but they would also benefit from an education geared to the lives they will actually lead.</p>
<p>It's not a matter of tracking. College prep courses should be open to any one who wants them. It's matter of also providing the choice to kids who don't aspire to college. I know that it is hard for parents on this board to accept that some kids just don't want college -- but I sure am grateful that there are still kids in the world who opt to become plumbers and roofers and mechanics instead - because I've never found it useful to call someone with a Ph.D. to fix the leak in my toilet. A vocational track in high school would be a godsend to kids who are growing up in poverty -- imagine if they could emerge at 18 with a diploma and training that will actually get them a decent paying, skilled job -- $15 an hour as opposed to $6.</p>
<p>Here, here! I think we need to reinstitute more vocational training and apprenticeship programs, like in Germany. The drop-out problem would be reduced if kids started getting job training (and maybe even stipend pay for apprenticeships) in high school.</p>
<p>i really wish people would stop blaming math teachers. i've had my fair share of awful teachers, but have you ever tried to teach someone math. i tutor at the middle school in my town, and it is incredibly hard to teach math. if a kid doesn't understand a concept it's very hard to phrase it differently or explain it in another way. some kids want to give up, but you shouldn't let them. personally, i don't think it should matter whether the kid likes the class or not. they should still try hard to understand concepts and not just give up when the math gets harder. if you can't handle high school, you're going to have trouble with life. everything that we learn may not be useful, but it does provide a solid base of education. sorry if this sounds like i'm annoyed, but that's because i am. i'm tired of everyone shifting the blame onto everyone but the kids. they need to get off their butts, realize the world doesn't revolve around them, and understand that life sucks, high school sucks, and its gonna get harder.</p>
<p>I don't think that the German system would work in America. some kids don't excel at school until they get older. the german system makes it so that your life is determined by how smart you are when you are ten years old. when i was 10 i sucked at math, but now i love it and i take calculus. by the german system i would be stuck going to the Hauptschule for vocational traing instead of to the Gymnasium for college prep school. i think that a lot of people would be angry that their future was decided at the age of 10 when they didn't really have a say it how their life was going.</p>
<p>I agree completely</p>
<p>Everyone has their own take on this situation. I never gave it a whole lot of thought before I started participating in this thread, but now I've done some research and decided that good vocational programs are the key to reducing the drop out rate. Of course, that is my opinion and I have no say in anyone's education but my own children's (and they will be taking Algebra II and beyond). </p>
<p>And, emeraldkity, I'm sorry you never got good counseling on your high school curriculum. Why don't you think you can go to college now? When you say language requirement, do you mean foreign language or english writing? I think you should go for it.</p>
<p>EK, we are not talking about allowing students to take "minimal" course work - this discussion is about raising the bar to require a third year of college-prep math. As a parent of a kid with an LD, I'd think you would be sympathetic to what this would do for kids with math-related learning disabilities. Some very smart kids struggle terribly with math.</p>
<p>I think this is a much broader issue than if students need algebra or precalculus to graduate high school.
Our state only requires two years of math- period- and does not define what those levels are.
Since we don't teach algebra per se- but teach "connected math" where the answers aren't as important as "feeling good about yourself"- two years of high school math- may very well be the same two years of math that has been recycled through out their classroom history.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We Dont Teach Long Division Anymore;</p>
<p>It Stifles Their Creativity</p>
<p>This was the answer a parent in the Lake Washington School District in Sammamish received when she asked her sons 5th grade teacher why she didnt teach him long division. Instead, the teacher put the children in groups and let them find their own answers. Many parents see this change in the approach to math education and are confused by it. They feel disconnected from their childs math curriculum and wonder why correct answers no longer matter. They sense something has changed, but they arent quite sure what to make of it. Parents are naturally eager to trust the educators, believing they must have our kids best interest at heart and they wouldnt do anything to harm the kids or their future.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From where I sit I have a couple observations
One is that my older daughter- who does have a a math disability- was able to take through stats in high school and took a year of calculus at Reed, as well as wade her way through all the calculations that are needed for organic Chem.
She attended private schools- with small class sizes and teachers who were able to select the curriculum that they found worked- rather than just the one that the district provided.
I don't think that all students need to take chem or even precalc- but I think either a student should have completed 4 years of math in high school- or have gotten to the advanced algebra level.
If you start high school- with an 6th gd knowledge of math- then oh well- you should be taking math every year-
If you really have a math disability- then you have an IEP and have specially designed math instructions or accomodations to help you complete math.
It is that important I think.
We wouldn't allow students to graduate with only 2 years of english in high school, especially if they weren't at grade level- at least I hope not</p>
<p>My younger daughter who also has a math disablity- has been in public schools- she was never taught long division until I paid for a tutor.
Upper level math- is very different ( so I have been told ;) )
than lower level math.</p>
<p>A student who might have difficulties with simple computation- might be able to write and defend proofs.</p>
<p>If you took algebra in 8th grd- geo- in 9th and advanced algebra in 10th as my daughter did- then you have the two years of high school math & I suppose I would say if you really didn't want to go on- then fine.
I really don't want students to be shutting doors on themselves- or the school district to be shutting doors on them either.
What is the lowest level of math at college?</p>