<p>jaybee,</p>
<p>Why do the Japanese and Koreans manage to teach their kids trig and calc before graduation, yet we're balking over alg 2?</p>
<p>algebra 2 can be passed by everyone with the right amount of effort. so can trig</p>
<p>I think in the US, academics are considered "uncool". Like it or not, many students of varying IQs stop trying in middle school to fit in with their peer group. As a culture, we do not place much value on education. I think this is part of the problem.</p>
<p>UCLA</p>
<p>maybe in such a homogenous society their average IQ is higher than ours.</p>
<p>Or maybe everyone doesn't get to go to high school.. Maybe they "weed out" underachievers long before high school.</p>
<p>or maybe most of their kids have parents who have passed those subjects (which is not the case here).</p>
<p>There can be a lot of reasons.</p>
<p>jlauer,</p>
<p>You're almost right on the first count. The average IQ in Japan is somewhat higher, but I don't think it has to do with homogeneity. I don't even think they're an SD higher, either...</p>
<p>Everyone in Japan goes to high school. </p>
<p>What difference does it make if the parents have passed the subjects when the parents aren't prone to getting involved with their kids here?</p>
<p>Yes, there is a lot of reasons. However, one of them is clearly the fact that the Japanese stay away from the PC feel-good atmosphere that we've let creep into our schooling</p>
<p>Just because you do not know anyone that is not intelligent enough to pass Algebra II, does not mean they don't exist. Maybe everyone at your private school can pass Algebra II with enough effort, but there are many people who just cannot learn it. Also, I don't know what warehouse you think everyone with a learning disability goes to after high school, because they go right out into the general population with everyone else. People keep referring to "everyone who does not have a learning disability should be able to pass Algebra II". Well, thousands and thousands of people have learning disabilities and should be able to earn a high school diploma. A high school diploma is not a degree from Harvard and I'm not sure why many posters don't think people of below average intelligence deserve to earn a high school diploma. It's JUST a high school diploma which doesn't actually get you that far in life. </p>
<p>I do a lot of volunteer work with underpriveleged people and honestly, some of these people work so hard and try their best just to get through life and not allowing them a high school diploma because they can't pass Algebra II is just plain cruel. Often times, their intelligence is low because of genetic reasons and they have learning disabilities, which can be genetic or from poor prenatal care or whatever reason. These people are not competing for college placements; they just want to maybe advance to an assistant manager position that requires a high school diploma. The USA is a huge country with a very diverse population which doesn't just include the URM's that are competing for the spots at top colleges. There is much more to diversity than race and religion, it also includes intelligence and to require Algebra II to graduate from high school is discriminatory. They are already at a disadvantage and not getting a high school diploma puts them at a much greater disadvantage.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>What difference does it make if the parents have passed the subjects when the parents aren't prone to getting involved with their kids here? <<<<</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>It still can make a HUGE difference. </p>
<p>Japanese parents don't sabotage their kids by saying such things as, "Well, I wasn't very good at math, so it doesn't surprise me that you aren't either." or "I don't know why you need to learn all that stuff -- I never needed to learn it."</p>
<p>Japanese kids know that their parents EXPECT them to pass. </p>
<p>Many Americans kids do NOT have parents who expect them to pass (or go to school at all, for that matter.)</p>
<p>And in a homogenous society (where EVERYONE values education) the pressure is on to succeed. No one is called a nerd (or worse, an oreo) for doing well in math or sciences.</p>
<p>True. In Japan there is at least some implicit pressure to graduate from high school and be reasonably well-educated. But really, parents here are far from involved past elementary school. Japanese are the real latchkey kids...:p</p>
<p>However, one of them is clearly the fact that the Japanese stay away from the PC feel-good atmosphere that we've let creep into our schooling</p>
<p>well you have that right</p>
<p>
[quote]
For more than a year, four of his classmates had been demanding money from him, sometimes hundreds of dollars at a time. Once, when he would not comply, they held his head under water in a river. Another time they forced him to undress and left him in the gymnasium in his underwear.</p>
<p>Finally, Kiyoteru Okouchi could not take it any more. On Nov. 27, the 13-year-old eighth grader hanged himself from a tree in the family garden, leaving behind a suicide note detailing the extortion, a poignant diary that named his tormentors and a note promising to pay his mother back the roughly $11,000 he had taken to give to the bullies.</p>
<p>The death of Kiyoteru, who lived in Nishio, outside Nagoya in central Japan, has touched hearts, and raw nerve, in Japan. It has set off nationwide soul-searching over the widespread bullying in schools, which represents a dark side of one of the world's most highly regarded educational systems.</p>
<p>The soul-searching turned into a sense of crisis this week as four more junior high school students killed themselves, possibly because they were influenced by Kiyoteru's case.</p>
<p>Two of the suicides, both by hanging, appear to be the result of bullying, with one student leaving a note identifying three classmates he said had mistreated him. A third student who hanged himself left a note saying his death was an "experiment" and was not the result of bullying, while the reason for the fourth death, in which a student threw himself in front of a train, is unclear...
Experts say there are several reasons for bullying. Japan is a group-oriented society, and students are taught early to conform. That could lead to ostracism for any student who seems different, said Tamotsu Sengoku, president of the Japan Youth Research Institute. It also makes bystanders reluctant to get involved to help the victim, he said.</p>
<p>In addition, the intense competition and workload in Japan's schools, as students prepare for high school and then college entrance examinations that can determine their future, creates conditions in which bullying can become an outlet for tensions. The examination pressure "causes frustration among children who are evaluated by only one measure -- academic achievement," said Akira Ishikawa, director of the lower secondary school division of the Ministry of Education.
[/quote]
<p>Oh, what a clever way to show how the Japanese educational system is clearly inferior to ours. Instead of using this in any sort of constructive context, you instead used it as a talking point and "shock point." </p>
<p>Because let's face it, there's NO bullying in the US. No gang fights. No suicides (my friend who blew his brains out was a figment of my imagination.)</p>
<p>And way to totally take what I meant out of context.</p>
<p>Bravo.</p>
<p>Emerald</p>
<p>That is such a sad story. And these things happen in this country, too. Bullying has caused many American kids to choose suicide. They, too, leave notes behind telling their painful stories. It breaks my heart every time I hear or read about these poor kids.</p>
<p>Bullying is a huge problem. and for awhile now, girls have become just as bad (maybe worse). The "Mean Girl" controversy that came up a few years ago made parents more "aware" but it never offered any real solutions.</p>
<p>I will concede that the problem has become a bit more severe in Japan than it is in the US, but as someone who was bullied in school I have to say this much- it happens in the States as well. </p>
<p>Hell, my friend here who is from Nor Cal was just mentioning how he was ready to kill himself in middle school because of the extent of the bullying he experienced.</p>
<p>bullying is big problem
I wonder how much of it is kick the dog syndrom
ya know- boss yells at husband yells at wife wife takes it out on kids, kids take it out on dog
no one can argue life is not stressful, and we don't have a lot of safety measures in place to allow to release stress- we are all just supposed to pedal faster and suck it up</p>
<p>emerald</p>
<p>Yes, there has been evidence that it can be a "kick the dog syndrome" when boys engage in bullying.]</p>
<p>However, with "mean girls", it is different. Often the mothers of "mean girls" either knowingly or unknowingly create these little monsters -- not by being mean to their own daughters, but by being mean/jealous and overly critical of others (critical/jeolous of others appearances/income/homes/cars/ etc.</p>
<p>We had a mean girl incident that could clearly be laid at the feet of the mom. This mom became sooooo jeolous when a classmate of her D bought a nicer car than they have. From that point on, the mom could never resist making snide comments. This gave the girl "permission" to start mistreating the innocent classmate. The girl got her friends to also mistreat this poor girl. All over a stupid car!!</p>
<p>And why is that when some parents hear about bullying, they just say, "oh that is just kids being kids" Ugh..... We are supposed to be raising our children to be better than their "natural" rude and selfish natures.</p>
<p>"The proper thing for a parent to say is, 'I did badly at mathematics, but I had a very bad teacher. I wish I had had a good one.'" W. W. Sawyer, Vision in Elementary Mathematics (1964), page 5 (which is a good book, by the way, to show how most kids can learn math better).</p>
<p>token</p>
<p>I think that is ok to say to some kids, but some kids might still take that as permission to fail or do badly themselves and claim that they, too, had a bad teacher.</p>
<p>The bullying topic should be in its own thread.... Something like: Bullying: how to stop it; how to prevent it</p>
<p>We should get back to the original topic.</p>
<p>I have an acquaintance who teaches math in our district--after all this discusion, I'm interested to talk to him on this subject. I'll report what I find out.</p>
<p>I suppose that our differences opinion line up on whether EVERY child of normal IQ (what is that, 80+?) and adequate (but not superhuman) effort is capable of doing Algebra II.</p>
<p>I think the average IQ is 100. I don't think that anyone who has an IQ lower than 100 could pass Alg II.</p>