TIME Article: What's Wrong with Our High Schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>jaybee:</p>

<p>In the competitive technological sophiticated world, the line between humanities and math/scince is blurring. If your english/history/writing kid become a reporter and he report about this project he will not understand what he is talking. If he becomes a stock market analyst who needs excellent communication skills and wants to make a buy recommendation for the customer, he would have no cluse what this scientfic company do or he will lack the ability to investigate. The recommendation or any job done will be supperficial.</p>

<p>Your son has a right not to take any course he wants but he is himself limiting his opportunities. Math/scince itself may be useless, but it builds skills that are lifelong as it tends to analyze and allow one to solve problems. And that is what is valuable to employeers. If you see a problem, would you run away from it while you are a student or would you like to tackle it and master it. Thus as a student must try to learn math/scince while they are young. For the sake of good GPA, many kids try to avoid such complex things in many domian. </p>

<p>Most people who have math/scince aptitude, they tend to avoid english/history like a plauge and similarly humanities kids wants to avoid math/scince at all costs. It is so wrong in on along term basis. School is designed to excel even if one struggle in a subject and this is the time to overcome problems by practicing it. This is a lesson one must learn as it will serve life long.</p>

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<p>While I agree that everyone may not require math to live a succesful life, I think that the problems of drop out rates and poor math skills represent an underlying problem in the educational system. I know for a fact that in many foreign countries (India and China for example), ALL students take AP Calc BC by 10th grade. In India, most students in decent schools learn how to write cursive English when they are in the 1st grade. Most kids here can't even read properly until they are in the 3rd grade. Some of you, perhaps most of you, think that this is extremely rushed, but let me remind you that there are many people in this country who constantly complain about outsourcing and similar practices. Well, I hope you see the connection. The gap will only widen in the future.</p>

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<p>I have alot of experience with the AFS foriegn exchange program & can tell you one big difference with other countries is that they start "tracking" kids very early. Our current student from Germany tells me that beginning in 5th grade you are tracked "college prep", "associates degree", "vocational"....think how far our teachers could take kids if all of them in a class were 4 year college type kids (usually IQ's over 110)? Our philosophy of "equal opportunity for all" bites us in situations like this. The "rights" of the few hinder the opportunities of the many.</p>

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<p>usalover, I agree with you totally, believe it or not. In the area of elite college admissions, the applicants should be able to perform at a high level regardless of aptitude or interest, and rely on their ability to persevere through difficulty and get help when needed.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, this is not a skill that all "lower end" college-bound students (like my son) have yet developed. It is no accident that many people return to night school or other training in order to expand their skills beyond what they chose to learn as teenagers. However, while I fully agree that HYPS doors should not be open to them, they should also not be shut out from all colleges while they mature academically.</p>

<p>And certainly, if the ultimate goal is simply a high school diploma, academic maturity of the type you described would shut a huge number out, whether in my generation or my son's.</p>

<p>csdad, I always wonder if some of the international statistics presented do not take this preliminary weeding out into account. (Chinese peasants taking AP Calc??)</p>

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<p>foodisgood:</p>

<p>Does everyone in China and India go to school? I haven't been to either country but I am under the impression that there is a lot of poverty in both countries. If you are talking about everybody in the country, I can't imagine they are all in AP calc by tenth grade. Some of them might be too busy doing substenance farming.</p>

<p>The reason that people on this forum's kids are getting into the top schools is that their kids are well above average. For every kid that is well above average, that leaves a kid who is well below average, who probably won't succeed in Algebra II or PreCalc. This does not mean he is a bad kid, it just does not mean he is a particularly intelligent child. Plenty of kids who do not succeed are intelligent, they just do not live up to their potential, but these are not the kids I am worried about because they can go back to school eventually and make up what they missed. I just think it is a shame that graduating from high school is becoming out of reach for some people through no fault of their own.</p>

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<p>How about: "Hey, how do I do this problem?" Is that so hard????</p>

<p>Seriously, my son had a horrible Alg II teacher last year (PhD, no less). When we met with her and the principal, we were able to expose that she never went over the previous night's homework. (she only gives a completion grade) We were shocked to find out that she didn't ask such things as, "Hey, what problem(s) did you have trouble with last night???" AND, when she introduced a new concept she didn't follow it up by having the kids to a "trial" problem in their seats to see if they understood what they were just taught. NO she just went from lesson to lesson...... so.... kids came home with assignments and parents had to "really" teach the concepts.</p>

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<p>why should we dumb down our HS curriculum just to get kids to graduate. That sounds a lot like what NYS does with the regents exams every year to increase the passing rates. Dont actually teach the kids the stuff, just make the test easier so we look better. Now that is great education.</p>

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<p>When I was in high school in the 70s, perfectly intelligent non-college bound kids filled their math credits with consumer and business math, which in my opinion relates more to the arithmetic that most of us use every day. When was the last time you plotted a line using coordinate points? >>></p>

<p>Jaybee: I think that your point is valid (everyone can't learn the same things -- each has been given different gifts). However, since we don't live in the same non-technical world of the 70''s, we can't just let kids ONLY learn what they did back then. </p>

<p>Does that mean Alg II for all? Probably not.... Does that mean offering some other class that builds on Alg I but only includes concepts that a person who will not be pursuing a "science/math/computer science" major may likely need while working in a "global economy" -- Probably.</p>

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<p>I'm not saying it should be dumbed down, I just think that today's kids should have the options we had at the same age--one size does NOT fit all, and as un-PC as it sounds, not ALL kids are capable of the same level of academics.</p>

<p>At my (very good public) school in 1976, a girl could take business math or bookkeeping, typing and shorthand, join the FBLA, and get a
damn good job upon graduation. A lot of good time could now be spent on Word and Excel instead of the quadratic equation.</p>

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<p>"Does that mean Alg II for all? Probably not.... "</p>

<p>The thing that is getting jaybee and me so riled up about this is that in each of our children's high schools, the requirements for graduation are that each child take and PASS Algebra I, Geometry and Algebra II. There are many, many kids that deserve to graduate that are not capable of passing these classes. Once you fail Algebra I, where is the incentive to stay in school? I can certainly understand why a kid would then say "Forget it" and stop going to school.</p>

<p>You can't say it is dumbing down the requirements to allow these kids to graduate, because up until recently, Algebra II was never a requirement for high school graduation.</p>

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<p>Izzie: </p>

<p>I agree.... Alg II should not be a req't for public schools -- but it should be a req't for the "college prep track". However, any kid (who does not have a learning disability) with a normal IQ should be able to learn Alg 1 and possibly Geometry. One could argue that Alg II might require a higher than normal IQ.</p>

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<p>I have a close friend from church who has many learning disabilities and struggles in math. She was still able to pass Alg II. I think it is a matter of effort, not intelligence for the most part(she is not one of those extremely bright, but LD kids either). Alg II is not required to graduate at our school, although 3 years of math are. She would like to attend college, although she took a gap year to do Americorps. I'm not sure what her plans are for next fall.</p>

<p>I just wanted to point out that most kids CAN pass Algebra II. I do not think it is a matter of curriculum being to difficult, althought I do think the drop out rate is extremely worrisome. Perhaps tracking is the answer, but that would leave out ambitious "normal IQ" and learning disabled kids who may want to go on to college.</p>

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<p><<<<"There are many serious grammatical and diction errors in the English textbook my schools use. I have pointed these out, even citing the necessary sources to back up my claims. My fellow teachers' response? "Oh, well, this is what the textbook says, so this is what we teach."">>></p>

<p>Ari: This would ANNOY the heck out of me (I don't suffer fools gladly).</p>

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<p><<<< The checkout clerk is a perfect example >>>></p>

<p>Haven't we all seen the look of mystery in a clerk's eyes when the total comes to, say, 5.32, and you give the clerk $6.07.</p>

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<p>Aah, yes, making change in your head is a lost art. . .</p>

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<p><<<< Our current student from Germany tells me that beginning in 5th grade you are tracked "college prep", "associates degree", "vocational"....think how far our teachers could take kids if all of them in a class were 4 year college type kids (usually IQ's over 110)? Our philosophy of "equal opportunity for all" bites us in situations like this. The "rights" of the few hinder the opportunities of the many. >>></p>

<p>That idea would never be "allowed" in this country. Too many would be concerned that not enuf URMs would be in the "college prep" track and that too many might be put in the "vocational track"</p>

<p>I totally agree that a teacher could go so much farther with a class of "bright kids only". That is what the honors progam is essentially about.</p>

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<p>I don't like that idea...what if you start out a bit "dumb" but end up a brilliant genius in high school? In the German system you wouldn't even be attending high school (or gymnasium), you'd be at a vocational school learning a trade. I know lots of kids who are late bloomers...</p>

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<p>optimizerdad,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Your example of comparing the performance of US kids who have taken a course in Japaneses/Chinese to those of Japanese kids who have taken English as a required course may be comparing apples and oranges a bit, no? Kids who voluntarily take a Japanese/Chinese course over here may have an interest in those languages, and therefore be more highly motivated.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I didn't even really make a serious comparison/contrast. It was just a joke, but I will say this- the Japanese do a fine job of teaching math and science. In fact, I'd say they're near the tops. However, English here is just awful. The texts are a joke Since I'm teaching English, however, it really bugs me to see so much wasted potential.</p>

<p>Friends of mine who went to private schools and had better English curricula blow my public school educated students out of the water.</p>

<p>The tools given to the students matter.</p>

79

<p>
[quote]
I agree.... Alg II should not be a req't for public schools -- but it should be a req't for the "college prep track". However, any kid (who does not have a learning disability) with a normal IQ should be able to learn Alg 1 and possibly Geometry. One could argue that Alg II might require a higher than normal IQ.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure I agree with this. I see the dumbest students in my classes here at least pass through Alg II.</p>

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<p>raindrop, I agree with you that with great effort, a kid with subaverage intelligence could pass Algebra II.</p>

<p>However, that kind of effort in and of itself is a result of maturity that many highschoolers, particularly boys, do not possess. If all below-average kids (by definition, 50% of the population) need to put in the kind of effort that your friend did, many will simply not try.</p>

<p>I don't think we as a community want to begin to deny high school diplomas to a larger group of kids than before, simply because we have raised the bar higher than they can go. </p>

<p>Some people subscribe to the theory that if we raise expectations, everyone will be able to achieve higher. That is certainly true for some, but I don't agree that it is true for all. And I'm not ready to let that group that can't make it through advanced math not get a high school diploma, when for at least the last 3 decades, they could.</p>