TIME Article: What's Wrong with Our High Schools?

Parents Forum
121

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They hire numerous farm hands, and they didn't hire them for their algebra skills.

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<p>And do they require their farm hands to have a high school diploma? And if so, why? I have to say I have never asked anyone who's painted my house, sanded my floors, sprayed my lawn, etc..., whether they had a high school diploma. </p>

<p>Frankly, I don't see algebra II--which should be taught by tenth grade-- as such a barrier to high school graduation at the end of 12th grade. A high school diploma should mean something very specific. What should it testify to? That a student spent x number of years sitting in classrooms? or that the student mastered certain skills?</p>

<p>Those without these skills will be competing not only with immigrants, both legal and illegal (and le's not delude ourselves that Congress will be able to totally stem the flow) but also with workers from developing countries who not only have mastered algebra but perhaps even calculus AND are glad to make $5.00 a day. </p>

<p>I agree with posters that bad math-education in the early grades sets up failure later on. But one big problem in k-12 education in the US is too low rather than too high expectations.</p>

122

<p>OK, I'm lost here. I'm 52 years old and have never needed to use any math beyond basic algebra and simple geometry in my adult life... and part of my work involves computer technical stuff, so I need to write & revise computers scripts from time to time. Only that looks like language & symbolic representation to me, not math. I was GOOD with high school math, straight A's & I found it easy - but by the time my older kid was 3 chapters into a 1st year algebra textbook, he was beyond the level that I remembered. I tried to help my daughter with trig and whatever I knew once is long gone. I can't even remember the difference between a sine and cosine. I haven't forgotten all that history & geography & literature stuff because I keep on using that sort of knowledge, and biology ended up being very useful indeed when I started having babies .... but the math? </p>

<p>So remind me again why I ever needed to know that stuff? I assume that if I had decided to become a mathematician like my 8th grade algebra teacher suggested then it probably would have all come in very handy... but I didn't. I went into law & then into business/marketing/web design/ writing and basically to this day I have never had any reason to even think I needed to know much beyond what was taught in pre-algebra. </p>

<p>My problem with the whole concept is that if you teach kids a lot of esoteric skills that have little real-world applications, then they end up with a lot of superficial knowledge that is not retained -- and meantime they've never learned to think critically, ask hard questions, or apply math to real world situations. All you have to do is look at this board which is full of kids who have 800 on the math SAT and have taken AP Calculus, but can't seem to do the math to understand what they are will be paying for college if they take on $80,000 worth of debt and then take 20 years to pay it off. </p>

<p>The kids who go to college and pursue careers in math, science and engineering are going to be very happy if they had a good foundation in high school. The rest of us are going to retain very little of it, and the less academically-adept kids who get forced out of high school who might have otherwise gone on to pursue very productive lives working at jobs that don't require college may find themselves shut out of the job market for lack of the diploma -- and then they will end up in prison where my tax dollars will support them while they use their math skills to calculate how much time is left on their sentences after subtracting time off for good behavior. </p>

<p>Let's get real here: I don't know if the people who speak Spanish while mowing my lawn are are "illegal" immigrants - my check goes to the guy who owns the company, not his workers -- but I know that the tolltaker on the bridge and the checker at the supermarket and the guy who came to fix the cable yesterday all speak English and they look like they are gainfully employed to me... and I honestly couldn't care less if any one of them knows what a quadratic equation is. 90% of my dealings are with people whose work is crucial in some way to my life, but who don't have jobs that require a college degree. </p>

<p>So let's encourage more kids to go on a college track, and let's encourage more math in high school -- but let's not turn that into a plan to create a second class citizenry made up of kids forced to drop out of high school because we are so busy creating arbitrary barriers that we've forgotten our goal of producing young adults who can be productive citizens and become the back bone of our work force.</p>

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<p>As to why you need to know the stuff (algebra etc.,) I offer two real world examples as to why.</p>

<p>One example is let’s say it’s 4 pm and mom has to try to figure out what to make for dinner at 6 pm. She might have pots, pans, chicken, seasonings, etc. If she follows basic rules (what to mix, how long to cook for, etc), dinner (the solution to her 4 pm problem) will be solved at 6 pm. </p>

<p>Another example, a surgeon sees people with various problems and is asked to find a solution. The surgeon uses the tools he has (xrays, medical history, etc.) and then tries to figure out the problem. Assuming surgery is the answer, the surgeon uses the tools available (scalpel, sutures, etc.) to solve the problem.</p>

<p>In neither example will anyone ask the mom or the surgeon, nor will they care if mom or the surgeon knows the answer to x + 3 = 5, what is the value of x. However, in each example, the mom and the surgeon will be facing a problem which requires a solution. By by using the tools or basic principles each knows, a solution can be had. </p>

<p>Going back to why you need to know the stuff (algebra etc.), this “stuff” tries to teach people to think. With algebra, you have a problem. There are basic rules (distributive property, identity property, etc), By using the basic rules, you can try to solve the problem. </p>

<p>Everyday of someone’s life they will have to deal with problems (sometimes big, sometimes small) that require solutions. You’re right that knowing how to solve a quadratic equation by itself is meaningless to the mom or surgeon, but the ability to think is a fundamental skill, which is why everyone needs to know this “stuff”.</p>

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<p>CalMom:
Sorry, but I disagree. </p>

<p>I think that in the process of learning mathematics (whether it's arithmetic, algebra X, geometry, fractals or whatever), what's important is that the kid is learning to reason and think logically. Remembering the equation to compute the roots to a cubic equation isn't important - having gone through the process & logic of seeing how & why it works, that's important.</p>

<p>I wound up in life as an applied mathematician. It certainly wasn't what I envisioned during my school years - I had dreams of becoming a dashing fighter pilot :) . It didn't happen, and in hindsight I'm glad I went through all those math courses in high school.</p>

<p>Every one of us, has a subject or two that we cordially disliked / hated with a passion. History? Bleaah, for me. I could make a case for dropping it altogether - why do we need to stuff our heads with boring facts, when the internet is just a keystroke away? Geography - same thing. English literature? Give me a break - cartoons are way more entertaining.</p>

<p>The goal of high school shouldn't be to have kids graduate with minimal skills required to exist in modern life - it should expose them to all the different fields out there, yes, and make them sweat to learn if necessary. Put the stars in their eyes. Push them to achieve things they had no idea they were capable of. Knowledge ain't easy - you appreciate it all the better if you put effort into acquiring it.</p>

<p>Somewhere out there in an inner-city ghetto, there could be a kid with the secret to cold fusion in his/her brain. Or a cure for brain cancer. Or faster-than-light travel. We won't know, and they won't either, until they see as much as possible of what's out there for them to discover and explore.</p>

<p>(...steps off soapbox)</p>

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<p>Yea Calmom! </p>

<p>As you said, we are on a path to two tracks--college prep or dropout.
There is apparently no room for a good, honest worker anymore.</p>

<p>Jugulator, you have voiced a common theme on this thread, that the algebra II is not so important itself, but the effort and thinking skills to pass it are. </p>

<p>I disagree, since so many teenagers focus only on the subject, and shut down when it seems not to have relevance. SHOULD teenagers put in their best effort? Of course. WILL they? Some will, and some won't, and some that won't still deserve a chance for a diploma, as they always have. </p>

<p>Perhaps they could be taught to "think" by enrolling in an applied math class, where they could figure out</p>

<p>--how to make change
--how to compute rolls of wallpaper for a room, paint for a house, shingles for a roof, etc., etc.
--accounting, checkbook balancing
--simple algebra, such as solving for unknowns, and working on proportions.
--Fractions, fractions, fractions! (to me the most useful of all)</p>

<p>Thinking skills can be practiced in any number of classes--let's not confine them to a math hurdle that seems insurmountable.</p>

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<p>I honestly think that "real world math", as described by jaybee above, is the most importat math skill that any kid can have. Most people will never ever use anything above basic math in their lives. They need to know how to use numbers functionally, to live in the world as mathematically literate. </p>

<p>But that is a far cry from Alg II.</p>

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<p>Jugulator -- you are talking about simple, basic algebra. Your example of x + 3 = 5 is a linear equation, introduced in first year algebra. </p>

<p>I don't have a problem with all high school graduates needing one year of algebra and one of geometry.</p>

<p>That's not the same as what is taught in Algebra 2. </p>

<p>The fact that you don't seem to know the difference illustrates my point; obviously you have forgotten whatever it is you managed to learn at that level, as you offered that example in response to a post where I wrote about "quadratic equations".</p>

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<p>optimizer, your second-to-last paragraph is eloquent. Where we disagree is that I would substitute "college" for "high school". My personal view is that that type of intellectual expansion occurs at an older age for many students. </p>

<p>As for the ghetto kid and cold fusion, that is why I agree that we should not track our kids into vocational vs. college prep at an early age, as in other countries. But we disagree where higher math is REQUIRED rather than simply OFFERED to that future prodigy.</p>

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<p>I do not believe that any of you live in the real world. Why, oh, why do you want to make a high school diploma an unreachable target? The goal of high school should be to prepare a person for life after high school, most especially finding a job. Yes, most of you are highly intelligent and your children are highly intelligent and you are on this board because you want the very best educational opportunities for your children and you are willing to devote a lot of time, effort and money to that goal. You are also very arrogant in assuming that others share your goals and abilities. Optimizerdad, so you hate history? I hate it too, but you are blessed with the intelligence to plow through the books and pass the minimal requirements, I'm guessing you probably got A's even though you hated it. And, jugulator, obviously a surgeon will have taken Algebra II as will anyone else on a college track. Surgeons have been trained in problem solving skills and if they are smart enough to get through medical school, then their math classes aren't an issue. I have a degree in systems analysis, and I have a hard time getting the dishes on the table at dinner time all at the same time, not because I am not smart enough to figure it out but because I find food and cooking it not terribly interesting, and my kids would just as soon stand in front of the refrigerator shoveling it in. That doesn't really motivate me to put lovely meals on the table at 6:00 sharp. </p>

<p>Problem solving ability is more a function of intelligence and interest than what math classes a person has taken -- the reason a person succeeds in algebra is that he/she has the intelligence and interest to solve the algebra problem in the first place. </p>

<p>And marite, I have no idea what my uncle's employment policies are, but why would you think a farm hand shouldn't be eligible for a high school diploma? A farm hand is a perfectly respectable job and if the goal of a high school diploma is to prepare a student for life after high school, then the farm hand seems to qualify. </p>

<p>Not every one is college bound.</p>

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<p>A high school diploma should mean something. That's the point that I and others are trying to make. Respectability is neither here nor there. </p>

<p>My cleaning lady, who is not an immigrant, is barely literate. It is only after I hired her--without, of course, having enquired about her educational achievements--that I learned she could barely read and write. But it does not matter. Having a high school diploma will not make her better at reading or math, nor will it give her access to other jobs. She is great at what she does and that what counts. </p>

<p>So, please do tell: what exactly should a high school diploma represent? Seat time? or educational achievement? or being able to do math at the 8th grade level, since algebra 1 is taught in that grade in many many schools? Is that what a diploma certifying that the recipient has received a 12th grade education should be about? 8th grade level?</p>

<p>Preparing students for life: well, are we talking vocational ed? I left high school without having learned to cook. I feel educationally deprived.</p>

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<p>Just to be clear, I am known to advocate making school attendance in general VOLUNTARY rather than compulsory, so I am not at all in favor of forcing people to do something that they are convinced is valueless. But as a matter of showing people what they might be able to do, if they applied themselves, I would be happy to see voluntary-attendance schools match their curriculums with the best worldwide examples, and to see voluntarily acquired school-leaving credentials be comparable to the same credentials in the places our country trades with. Yes, by all means let people decide their own career paths and their own favorite occupations, but let the people who administer schools be honest about how good a level of education the school offers.</p>

132

<p>We often hear polititians speaking about the gap widening between the rich and the poor (but let's not debate that here) and we often hear that there are "Two Americas" (again, let's not debate that here)....</p>

<p>Well, are we prepared to accept the widening gap between the educated and the non-educated? that is where we are heading. those with high math/science skills with a "college prep" hs diploma PLUS a college diploma, and those with 'vocational high school diplomas who will make a LOT less money.</p>

<p>Are we ready to accept this and are we ready to accept that this will cause an even wider gap between the rich and poor (again, this is not a lib/conserv debate --- it's just a educated vs. much less educated issue and whether we can accept that.</p>

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<p>marite:</p>

<p>Does your cleaning lady have a high school diploma? I have never said that people who cannot read or write should be awarded high school diplomas. The only thing I am arguing is that Algebra II should not be required to graduate from high school. If the farm hand went to high school, and passed all the required classes except Algebra II, he would not graduate. Since Algebra II seems to be the accepted measure of potential to succeed in college, there should be a track for people who do not have the potential to succeed in college. Just because some children complete their algebra I in eighth grade does not mean every child can. And many high schools have traditionally offered vocational ed -- yes, to prepare students for life. A guy I knew in high school took HVAC for most of the day his junior and senior years, preparing him for a pretty decent career and this was at a mostly college prep high school. He had had some brain damage from being born prematurely, so really wasn't going to be able to do college. I'm sure your school offered home ec classes which you chose not to take, so you could have learned to cook in high school. I took cooking and sewing in high school, because my mom was the home ec teacher.</p>

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<p>jlauer:</p>

<p>What we are going to end up with is the "college prep" hs diploma and the other half, the "no diploma" crowd. I know two male high school dropouts, now in their twenties and they both live with their mothers. One of them, I hired to clean out my basement when we had had a sewer backup and gobs of stuff got ruined. I paid him $400 for 9 hours of gross, disgusting, hard work and he cried...he said he had never seen a check that big. The other one lives next door to me in his mother's detached, unheated, dirt floor garage. When I go over there occasionally to complain that he is playing his electric guitar too loudly in the middle of the night, he is usually so stoned that he can't stand up straight. He does go to work occasionally, but I'm not sure where. I'm not saying either of these kids dropped out just because they didn't pass Algebra II, but this is how many dropouts end up.</p>

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<p>Izzie: What we are going to end up with is the "college prep" hs diploma and the other half, the "no diploma" crowd. </p>

<p>Yes, and that is my point in #132 Are we prepared to accept that as a nation and all that will imply --- </p>

<p>I can see this country heading towards a "Pride and Prejudice" kind of lifestyle: Those with servants and those who are servants. Think about it, homes are getting larger and larger -- some people already have illegal "live ins" -- the next step would be having "low income legals" living in our homes "serving" us.</p>

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<p>jlauer,</p>

<p>I think that writers in the 19th and early 20th centuries feared this as well. And rightfully so. </p>

<p>One of the biggest challenges facing the so-called "post industrial" world is the increasingly high threshold for gainful employment. Gone are the days of screwing washers on in the middle of a factory line for a living wage. That kind of job has gone to countries like Thailand (not even the Chinese do that kind of work anymore...) Based on what I read, it seems that Europe (with exceptions like Finland) isn't exactly doing the best job either...</p>

<p>I say we follow Finland's example, personally. It doesn't seem to be a zero sum game we're playing here, at any rate, despite your soothsaying jlauer.</p>

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<p>You know, there's something between nuclear physicist and landscape worker!</p>

<p>How about your child's school secretary, the cable guy, the cook at your favorite restaurant, the fast food manager, cops, firefighters, enlisted military?</p>

<p>Ask any of them how much they wanted to be enriched, enlightened, and challenged in high school? You'll get a variety of answers. Some of those people HATED school. Some people are terrible students but very good workers. Being a good student requires one set of skills, while doing a good job at work requires a somewhat different aptitude.</p>

<p>We all know someone who is a great student, but could never work worth a darn.</p>

<p>Maybe it's not the predominant perspective on a college-search website, but there ARE other roads to success than education.</p>

138

<p>UCLA </p>

<p>I've never been a fan of the zero sum theory so I don't think that applies to my suggested scenario.... and I'm not trying to be "soothsayer" I am offering a possiblity and want others to offer theirs. I have no idea of how it will all shake out.</p>

<p>It's just that I think that there might be two groups -- one group of high earners that have graduate/professional degrees (a BS is no longer "enuf" AND a second group of low/lower earners who either dropped out of got a low math/science HS diploma.</p>

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<p>Does your cleaning lady have a high school diploma?</p>

<p>I have no idea, and I am not about to ask. It's not needed for her to make a fairly good living. But I would be dismayed if she indeed had one because it would render the diploma of other students rather meaningless, wouldn't it? </p>

<p>So again: what is a high school diploma supposed to be certifying?</p>

140

<p>
[quote]
That kind of job has gone to countries like Thailand (not even the Chinese do that kind of work anymore...)

[/quote]
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<p>Thailand is too expensive. Instead of Thailand, try Laos or Cambodia, or Vietnam (look at the labels on the clothes you buy). That's where Korean, Taiwanese and PRC companies subcontract.</p>