<p>My former cleaning lady has a HS diploma and she is really smart. We became very good friends over the years. </p>
<p>She decided to become a housekeeper because it gave her the flexibility that she wanted. But.... she knew it wasn't something that she could do forever (it's hard on the body) so when her back started hurting, she and her hubby started a small business. Her smarts were the key to the successful transition.</p>
<p>jaybee,</p>
<p>Yes, there is an "in between." However, keep in mind that the blue collar sector (as a percentage of the GDP) has steadily shrunk in the past few decades. What's even more interesting is that you listed a couple of white collar jobs in that list! </p>
<p>jlauer,</p>
<p>First of all, what is there not to like about zero sum theory? It's pretty bullet proof. A clear example of this is chess- someone MUST lose, making it a zero sum game.</p>
<p>Similarly, your suggestion that those with high power degrees will earn while those without won't is somewhat a zero sum argument (a situation in which a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant). The argument that the rich will get richer while the poor get poorer overlooks the fact that the economy will create jobs for those without degrees.</p>
<p>marite,</p>
<p>I've been in Japan too long...I just looked at my clothes and saw "Tai" (Thailand) on there, so I went with Thailand.</p>
<p>Silly mistake. You're right, of course.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Her smarts were the key to the successful transition.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Seems she deserved her high school diploma! She had not just done her time in high school.</p>
<p>I've often wondered why some people without high school diplomas don't just go for their GEDs. Not quite the same, but better than nothing.</p>
<p>ucla << First of all, what is there not to like about zero sum theory? >>></p>
<p>what I mean is that I don't like the assumption that for one to "win" another one MUST LOSE (like a game). I dont believe the economy has to be a zero sum game meaning that if there are going to be 150 million winners then there must be 150 million losers in America. </p>
<p>Some like to use the zero sum theory to suggest that those who do "win" are winning "at unfair the expense" of the losers. </p>
<p>That is what I meant when I said that I don't like the zero sum theory. I don't think that people win at the expense of others and I don't think that most win by using unfair or dishonest methods.. </p>
<p>I do agree that the economy will create meaningful "family supporting" jobs for some of the under-educated. I'm not confident that it will always be able to create enough for the under-educated just because of the expanding use of machines to replace labor.</p>
<p>jlauer,</p>
<p>Oh, good. You seem to at least understand that economics is rarely zero sum (except for maybe in trade issues, but that's a different animal.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not confident that it will always be able to create enough for the under-educated just because of the expanding use of machines to replace labor.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Meaningful employment for the less educated mustn't necessarily be in physical labor or things that are easily replaceable by machines. Plenty of low skill jobs out there that machines won't be doing soon...</p>
<p>...like servicing machines.</p>
<p>Oh I TOTALLY know that economics is NOT a zero sum game and will argue with those who suggest that it is... :)</p>
<p>But, what percentage of the adult population could/should be in the "highly educated" group and how many should be in the lower. I don't think we want a 50/50 split and we certainly don't want a 25/75 split.</p>
<p>In the post-industrial world, it seems that you want to get as much of your human capital into the educated group as possible. This seems to be part of why Finland and other Northern European countries have done well compared to their Western European counterparts (France, for example)</p>
<p>Soooooo.....</p>
<p>Do you think that the average high school should have 80% or more of its seniors receiving the "college prep diploma"?</p>
<p>I'd say that if the US is to stay ahead of the pack, it must at least provide a secondary education competitive with countries like Japan, South Korea, and Finland.</p>
<p>I just checked the requirements for leaving school before 12th grade in France. A student may leave after 9th grade after taking an exam. Since math is taught in an integrated fashion, the math component of the exam combines both algebra and geometry. The algebra level seems to me to match the Algebra II curriculum in this country, though the geometry is less thoroughly covered than in a typical geometry class in the US. </p>
<p>After 9th grade, a student may opt to go into a vocational track that will train him/her in anything ranging from carpentry to hotel management. Depending on the track, more math/science will be required. Another set of exams (baccalaureat part 1 & 2, taken at the end of 11th and 12th grades respectively) is required to receive what would be the equivalent of a high school diploma in the US, although American colleges give Advanced Standing to baccalaureat holders. All students are exposed to calculus in 12th grade; the extent depends on the track the student is in (humanities and languages; economics and social sciences; math and sciences).</p>
<p>A student who fails an exam (which tests students in all subjects studied) must repeat the entire year. Exams are failed when students fail to achieve an aggregate score of 10/20 or when they receive a score of 0/20 in any subject even if the aggregate score is above 10/20 (scores are weighted according to tracks). </p>
<p>So: a French diploma has clear curricular implications. And, to receive a 9th grade diploma a student must pass the Algebra II/geometry exam.</p>
<p>As in any country, there are students who leave school without a diploma.</p>
<p>marite,</p>
<p>Some attribute the French educational system's structure with many of the problems facing the graduating youth today. I think the Economist just had an article (this week?) about how the youth are largely disatisfied with the outcome of their high school and college educations.</p>
<p>I for one find the overreliance on "tracking" to be a bit heavy handed. But then again, I find much of French social structure too heavy handed...</p>
<p>*I have no idea, and I am not about to ask. It's not needed for her to make a fairly good living. But I would be dismayed if she indeed had one because it would render the diploma of other students rather meaningless, wouldn't it? *</p>
<p>I am speechless
I happen to think that a minimum of a high school diploma is required for everyone in an educated society- regardless of how they earn their living.
I think they make better citizens, better parents, better neighbors, why wouldn't you want that for your cleaning lady?</p>
<p>My D music teacher has a PHD in chemistry- is she wasting it?
I don't think so.
I live in Seattle- ya know how many people have a BA who are pulling espresso? ;)
Is education only about what kind of job title you get?
Or is it another layer with which to experience the world?</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>As in any country, there are students who leave school without a diploma. <<<<</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I can't help but think that this is true in all countries -- even the Asian countries. Every single Asian child can't be reasonable intelligent, disciplined, and have good health, etc. There must be some who drop out for a variety of reasons. (A painful thought: I doubt the ones in the sex slave business got to go to school long enuf to graduate)</p>
<p>The fact is that the US just doesn't really want a system that doesn't allow a person who is one standard deviation lower than the median to be able to get a HS diploma -- simply because those in power believe that being able to say "I am a HS graduate," is supposed to open doors to many jobs. To have to say anything less is supposed to be such a stumbling block and embarrassment.</p>
<p>If the question is "What does a HS diploma mean?" if almost anyone can get one. Perhaps the answer has already been implemented in many districts -- having different tracks. This isn't a bad idea. One person can say, "I have a College Prep HS diploma," and another can say, "I have a vocational HS diploma". </p>
<p>Isn't this somewhat similar to "majors' in college. Certainly one can argue that some majors are extremely more difficult than others, but does that minimize what a college diploma means? Many majors require higher math/science req'ts; some hardly require any.</p>
<p>I really dislike implications that I am heartless for wanting high school diplomas to represent something that prospective employers or college admissions officers can rely on to evaluate candidates.</p>
<p>EK: You are confused as to what a high school diploma should mean. It should not be what it is FOR but what it is ABOUT. My cleaning lady has the reading and writing ability of a 5th grader (she is not retarded). Would you award a high school diploma to a 5th grader? And if not, why would you want to award it to someone who, though older, cannot read any better than a 5th grader? What is the justification for it?</p>
<p>And I don't see the morality issue here. My cleaning lady is an upstanding citizen; she has been with me for 15 years and I can vouch for her total integrity. She is a great parent, and a good neighbor. What has that got to do with the fact that she can't leave a list of supplies for me to buy without gross misspellings? or that she can't do anything beyond very simple arithmetics? Again, what should a high school diploma be ABOUT?</p>
<p>The Ph.D. and B.A issues you cite are total red herrings. They do not testify to the fact that someone can pull espressos or teach music when they have a Chemistry Ph.D. They testify that the holder has done the work necessary to receive a Ph.D. in chemistry. It is ABOUT qualifications as a potential chemist, not to certify someone FOR teaching music. Similarly, someone holding a B.A. who pulls espresso has a degree that is ABOUT what s/he has studied in college, not a qualification FOR working in a fast-food joint.</p>
<p>A high school diploma should represent a more or less similar levels (not kinds) of achievement. That's what most other countries seem to get, and many posters here don't. </p>
<p>But hey, it's okay. We're number one. Except that the American Century lasted less than 50 years. The Chinese may not all be getting a high school education; ditto the Indians. But between them, there are over two billions people, and we're fewer than 300 millions. I'm sure that they can muster 300 millions who can do Algebra II and more. So let's be happy with our supposedly superior educational level and dumb down the high school diploma requirements so that no child is left without one.</p>
<p>I'm done with this thread.</p>
<p><<< I really dislike implications that I am heartless for wanting high school diplomas to represent something that prospective employers or college admissions officers can rely on to evaluate candidates. <<<</p>
<p>I don't think that I disagree with this premise. If someone applies to college with a "college prep HS diploma", the admission's board should see a candidate that has taken 3-4 years of math (including Alg II), 3 -4 years of science (including bio & chem) and 4 years of English, plus the usual other assortment of classes. </p>
<p>If someone applies for a skilled labor job, the employer should see a candidate that can read, write, spell and do math at least to a 10th grade level, if not higher. Someone who reads, spells, or does math at a fifth grade level should not get a diploma. You may be wondering why I picked 10th grade level.... because I am assuming that the last two years are spent taking classes that lead to a vocation -- which for some may mean more math, reading or science.</p>
<p>Jlauer:</p>
<p>My disagreement is not with you at all. I agree that there should be ways of signalling that students have completed requirements needed to have some sort of diploma at the end of 10th grade. In fact, most countries have such diplomas for leaving at the end of 9th grade. The French curriculum I cited has vocational tracks for the last 3 years of school but many students leave school after 9th grade with a diploma (Brevet de college) if they pass the required exams.</p>
<p>The problem that I see here is that in the area of math, there no differentiation between a college prep curriculum and a simple HS diploma track.</p>
<p>No such problem in foreign language--not going to college? You don't have to take it.</p>
<p>Science--take Bio, and then earth & environmental science.</p>
<p>Electives? Don't need many of them. Get a a job, and leave after 1/2 day in your senior year.</p>
<p>Baltimore County's course description book offers dozens of school-to-work programs, which, interestingly include accounting & bookkeeping, but you can't get a math crredit for it!</p>
<p>The young ladies at my son's HS that do an extensive program in child care (for day-care, preschool employment) STILL have to take Algebra II!</p>
<p>It's ONLY in math that we are building this roadblock. Why?</p>
<p>"It's ONLY in math that we are building this roadblock. Why?"</p>
<p>I've been wondering about that myself. My daughter's school tracks in all subject areas so that different kids can achieve "according to their potential." What that means is that some kids will track through AP classes in only one subject or in all subjects but one. I wonder where a kid who goes through APUSH or AP Physics and a lesser math track or through AP classes in Math but through a lesser English track would land in the continuum or how that would impact college admissions. </p>
<p>Modern day math designations confuse the heck out of me. I'm in New York City and when I was a kid in the dark ages, we took Algebra, Geometry, Trig and then Calculus or if you took Algebra in 8th grade or doubled up in math, we took AP math classes. That was clear (of course there were non-Regents and business tracks). A few years back the kids took Sequential I, II, and III which were then changed (and may change back the year after next) to Math A and Math B. My kid completed Math A and Math B and I STILL don't know exactly what those classes cover. It's almost impossible to get a straight answer on that. I've been reading this thread about Algebra II and I can't figure out what that was in my youth or what it is even now.</p>