Title 9 and discontinuing football

<p>If football wasn't included in title IX, it would appear that men were getting discriminated against with the lack of the number of teams in other sports. </p>

<p>Personally, I think to test the ratio of males to females in sports, you should just be required to have the same number of male teams as female teams. It shouldn't matter if that team has 85 people or 15 people. I think there are 19 male and female sports that NCAA approved as varsity teams. </p>

<p>Title IX is all about gender equality, right?? Hypothetically, what if there was race equality in sports?? What if the courts ruled that each team had to have the same number of whites, Africian Americans, Asians, etc.? If we are all about equality than that should be next.</p>

<p>No losing existences?</p>

<p>What about MSU and UM Lacrosse, buh bye to Varsity a few years back. OR Eastern Michigan possibly getting bumped to D2 as they can't bring in enough fans due to lack of wins. That would cut the team in half, which isn't quite existence, but still extremely severe. Winning and losing do matter, this is largely due to the money, but none the less, they do.</p>

<p>Another thing -</p>

<p>Many more men than women participate in sports in HS. Then in college, equal representation is required. Why sports are based on 'equality' rather than need I don't know.</p>

<p>Title IX has vastly increased the amount of female participation in sports, which is GREAT. However, it also gives females overrepresentation for scholarships and sport participation.</p>

<p>I guess I am lukewarm as to whether title IX is good or bad, but it is certainly flawed in my opinion, and does cause harm to many people who could benifit from collegiate athletics.</p>

<p>Your experience personally with the number of women who compete in high school sports versus the number of males who do the same is vastly different from mine. Not only did males and females turn out in equal numbers for school teams, there were also a similar number involved in club/elite out of school teams.</p>

<p>I never said that men's teams should be cut. Women's teams should be added.</p>

<p>Most of the frustration expressed on this board by Title IX opponents has to do with the acts of INDIVIDUAL INSTITUTIONS and not with the blanket guidelines of the law.</p>

<p>Are some schools cutting boys programs? Sure. But the vast majority are instead choosing to add girls programs. Is this a matter of money? Yes. Not every school can afford to offer 10 new scholarships, hire a new coach, build new facilities, hence the cuts of boys programs.</p>

<p>But Title IX swings both ways. In November of last year, Western Kentucky University made the decision to upgrade its football team to Division I A from Division I AA because it offered 20 fewer scholarships for MEN then it should have. When the team switches divisions, 22 new scholarships for men will be created. (<a href="http://wku.edu/news/releases06/november/football.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://wku.edu/news/releases06/november/football.html&lt;/a> and <a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km4469/is_200610/ai_n17021914%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_km4469/is_200610/ai_n17021914&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Not the norm, obviously. But Title IX is not SOLELY for the benefit of women.</p>

<p>In a perfect world, no school would have to cut ANY program. Any frustration with the loss of a football or wrestling team should be directed at the school, not the law.</p>

<p>More programs cost money.</p>

<p>That's why they are getting cut, not because they don't like the kids or something. Why do you say we should blame the school for still wanting to offer fin. aid or build facilities or any other needed cost? These aren't the Ivies with multi-billion dollar endowments that we are talking about, these are colleges that need to budget well.</p>

<p>Ok, how about some FACTS instead of conjecture?</p>

<p>You don't HAVE to cut teams. You can cut funding.</p>

<p>Football and basketball budgets consume a whopping 72% of the average Division I-A school's total men's athletic operating budget. </p>

<p>If a school cut into that budget instead of cutting a team, they would comply with Title IX.</p>

<p>Most schools DO NOT cut teams.</p>

<p>A recent GAO study found that 72% of schools that added teams from 1992-1993 to 1999-2000 did so without discontinuing any teams.</p>

<p>Basketball and Football should NOT count under title IX because they pay for other sports?</p>

<p>Myth. A 1999 study shows that 58% of Division I-A and I-AA football programs don't generate enough revenue to pay for themselves, much less any other sports. These programs reported annual deficits averaging $1 million and $630,000 respectively. In general, only 48 colleges brought in more money than they spent in 1999, and the annual average deficit at Division I-A colleges that year was $3.3 million.</p>

<p>Where does the money go? Some use chartered jets (instead of commercial planes) to fly their football teams to games, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Many house entire football teams in hotels the night before home games (true for virtually all Div. 1-A schools), citing the need to ensure that players get adequate rest, have quiet time to study, have their meals and fluid intake monitored, and are available for pre-game meetings. One university spent $120,000 to repanel the head football coach's office in mahogany while it insisted that there wasn't enough in school coffers to add sports opportunities for women. Another spent over $1 million to buy out the contract of the football coach -- and cut two women's teams to save about $60,000. Still another institution, San Diego State, cut its men's volleyball team to address a $2 million deficit in the athletics program, only to buy state-of-the-art titanium facemasks (and new football uniforms) for the football team four months later, becoming one of only two collegiate programs in the country to have such facemasks.</p>

<p>Women aren't as interested in sports?</p>

<p>MYTH. After Title IX, women's participation in intercollegiate sports skyrocketed. Before Title IX, fewer than 32,000 women participated in college sports; today that number exceeds 150,000--nearly 5 times the pre-Title IX rate, proof that interest follows opportunity.</p>

<p>Title IX oversteps?</p>

<p>MYTH. The playing field is far from level for female athletes, despite Title IX's considerable successes. Women's athletics programs still lag behind men's programs. While 53% of the students at Division I schools are women, female athletes in Division I receive only: 41% of the opportunities to play intercollegiate sports, 43% of the total athletic scholarship dollars, 36% of the athletic operating budgets, and 32% of the dollars spent to recruit new athletes.</p>

<p>MEANWHILE spending on men's sports continues to increase and dominate spending on women's sports:</p>

<p>In Division I, in 2000, for every dollar being spent on women's sports, almost two dollars are being spent on men's sports.</p>

<p>Of the $3.57 million average increase in expenditures for men's Division I-A sports programs from 1996-2000, 68% of this increase, or $2,463,000, went to football. This amount exceeds the entire operating budget for all women's sports in 2000 by over $1,693,600.</p>

<p>Title IX has done all it needed to do.</p>

<p>False. For every new dollar spent on athletics at the Division I and II levels, male sports receive 65 cents while female sports receive 35 cents.</p>

<p>And each year male athletes receive $137 million more than female athletes in college athletic scholarships at NCAA member institutions.</p>

<p>And I am supposed to just take your word as being truth? I'll bet that will get me a lot in college. "I said it so it must be true." Somehow I don't see a professor going for that.</p>

<p>Where's your reference to this information?</p>

<p>uhhh...I am sorry that some parts of this have turned ugly. I only started the post b/c I wanted to not look like a ninny...getting my Roman numerals wrong **and **mis-representing why a school may have a football stadium but no football team.</p>

<p>I am not going to ask you all to join hands and sing Kumbaya but this has gotten a little personal. These boards in general are so supportive and I feel badly for starting a thread that has gotton so heated. Anyone who loves a female athlete at the HS or College level needs to appreciate at least a part of what Title Nine has done for women and girls.</p>

<p>By way of example: </p>

<p>My mom played on her HS BBall team 1/2 court in a skirt.</p>

<p>I had single sex PE, played HS sports but was never into really developing myself as an athlete because the girls who dominated athletics in the 70s (at least in my neck of the woods)were considered unfeminine</p>

<p>After Title 9, my daughters have never not played PE w/ boys. As a result they have no problem routinely slamming into other girls (or boys) on the soccer field. They fall down pick themselves up with a grin, wipe some blood off thier knees and head back into the fray. Afterwards no one can deny that they and their teammates are athletes first on the field but girls everywhere else. Unlike my HS experience these girls are nominated for homecoming and prom queens. They date and they are not labled as "Just" Athletes They have a confidence in themselves and a pride in what their bodies do, not just in how their bodies look.</p>

<p>Can we not say "Thanks" to Title IX for that; thanks for giving our sisters, neices, daughters and friends the chance to really play and all the benefits that entails.</p>

<p>On the other hand some schools do achieve compliance in ways that hurt boys. I don't think we can deny that either. It must feel like a horrible betrayal to attend a school on a wrestling scholarship only to have not only the scholarship but the team jerked out from underneath you. It must be horrible to accept a college or plan on attending a college where the program you were planning to participate in was eliminated. Can we acknowledge that as a problem w/o throwing the whole law into question?</p>

<p>I hope we can. The law is created by humans and, like humans it has its failings.</p>

<p>Jeepmom - My apologies for misspelling your name. Multitasker here. However, our exchange is very clear and understandable to anyone interested and who has been following the issue.</p>

<p>I'm sure if you reread you will "get it".</p>

<p>historymom, I think you bring up very valid points, and I think they're important to consider.</p>

<p>The difference between the parents and the students on this thread is one of perspective. The parents remember when girls couldn't play Little League or Pop Warner; when they were told they could "just be cheerleaders"; when there wasn't a question of "Why don't you just play on the girls' team" because there were no girls' teams; when reaching high school meant the end of athletics for girls (except maybe some gymnastics or swimming).</p>

<p>The students, on the other hand, don't know any of this. As far as they're concerned, girls have always been able to participate and have always had either their own teams or been allowed to be on boys' teams. And vice versa.</p>

<p>And the fact that this is so is due to Title IX.</p>

<p>OK, I jumped into this late but I just watched the video on page 2 and if that doesn't stick in your craw, then you must have the compassion of a toad.<br>
Merritt Island is in our backyard, our boys have played against MIHS baseball...all that was said is true. What a huge travesty. Our boys/parents did the same with our baseball fields. For a long time, the girls softball was much nicer than our fields because the coach and his wife were extremely hardworking and generous- they and their team at the time had that field looking great. When their kids left the school, nothing was done over there. Meanwhile, we got a great group of parents on the baseball team, the boys busted their backs fundraising and working on weekends fix up their field. Fast forward 3 seasons...now people complain because they see a run down softball field (because the girls and their parents don't life a finger to try to do something about it), and a great baseball facility. It is unbelievable that people will try to hurt others when they've done something to help themselves. It's all because of spite and jealousy.</p>

<p>Thanks for the opportunity to vent.</p>

<p>Oh and I agree about the chorus/dance thing- no one complains about the fact that the boy/girl ratio in the fine arts is unbalanced, and there is just as much expense associated with that as with sports. Why?</p>

<p>Doubleplay - the video is a prime example of manipulative propaganda, using classic tools of rhetorical sleight of hand - from the use of terms such as "equality police", to the unctuous faux-concern of the narrator. If you go back and view it with a critical eye I think you'll see what I mean. It makes Roger Moore look like Walter Cronkhite. The presentation of the 'issue" in the video quickly destroyed any credibility for the ham fisted argument it was trying to make. </p>

<p>I don't have the compassion of a toad - but i don't have the brains of one, either. There are legitimate, and serious issues involved here, but the video only muddied the water.</p>

<p>kluge,
Nothing to do with the video- I live up the street from MIHS- I know what happened.</p>

<p>Historymom, your last post captures the issue well. You perfectly show how one can be a champion of girls, girls' opportunities, and girls' athletics while still understanding the many problems of Title IX. It seems on CC when Title IX is criticized in any way, the poster is vilified as anti-girl, chauvanistic, misogynistic, blah, blah blah.</p>

<p>A perfect example of the lack of understanding is the statement in post #106 from Ses, claiming that most schools do not cut teams in oder to comply with Title IX. End of story? I don't think so! If the number SES gives is correct, then 28% of schools cut programs when they added women's teams. How many thousands of boys lost out? I believe in win-win solutions, and clearly many Title IX compliance efforts have been wrong-headed.</p>

<p>I wish those blindly insisting that Title IX is perfect, and using the anecdotal example of their own athletic girls to represent all college women, would see the interest surveys. Yes, girls have jumped at the chances they are now offered. But they still do so at a much lower rate than boys. By their own choice. Why can't we admit that? Female varisty high school athletes are less likely to have the desire to compete at a varsity level in college than males. Why can't schools have the flexibility to meet the needs of their students as defined by those students? If girls show that club or intramural athletics is what they want, give it to them for God's sake. Cutting boys' teams does nothing to enhance a girl's college experience. In fact, when male swimming, gymnastics, or track teams have been cut for Title IX compliance, the girls have protested because it hurts THEIR training. Male & female athletes are not at odds eith each other. They support one another.</p>

<p>Hops_scout</p>

<p>My information comes from <a href="http://www.titleix.info/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.titleix.info/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Here's a list of court cases from the website: <a href="http://www.titleix.info/content.jsp?content_KEY=1440&t=athletics.dwt%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.titleix.info/content.jsp?content_KEY=1440&t=athletics.dwt&lt;/a>. Included is the Brown University gymnastics team case.</p>

<p>Certainly a biased source, but the numbers are real. What reason could I possibly have to fabricate them?</p>

<p>The same statistics listed above in that article can be found in "Gender Equity in College Sports: 6 Views" by Robinson, J., Peg Bradley-Doppes, Charles M. Neinas, John R. Thelin, Christine A. Plonsky, and Michael Messner in the Chronicle of Higher Education from December 6, 2002.</p>

<p>ESPN did a Feedback thing a little while ago: <a href="http://espn.go.com/gen/womenandsports/020620feedback.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://espn.go.com/gen/womenandsports/020620feedback.html&lt;/a>. Opinions are just as varied there as they are here. But the overall agreement is that Title IX is good, just that boys programs should not be cut. However many of the posts are tinged with sexist sentiments.</p>

<p>And actually in recent years (Bush era) legistlation has been passed to make any school that is compliant with ONE prong of title IX compliant with the law (<a href="http://www.now.org/issues/title_ix/033105titleix.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.now.org/issues/title_ix/033105titleix.html&lt;/a> and <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35362-2003Jan23.html)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35362-2003Jan23.html)&lt;/a>. So it really isn't THAT hard to be compliant. Many schools also try to prove compliance by citing increased opportunities for women rather than increased quota participation.</p>

<p>Just about every article that I've read which takes an anti-Title IX stance asserts that women are much less interested in sports than men, simply as a matter of course.</p>

<p>Is that really the only argument against the so-called quota sections of the law?</p>

<p>Seriously?</p>

<p>More info:</p>

<p>An article about Title IX in high schools: <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/22/AR2007062201812_2.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/22/AR2007062201812_2.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>JMU's current debate:
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061902278.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/19/AR2007061902278.html&lt;/a>
(although they are cutting both men's and women's teams)</p>

<p>Another more comprehensive article including information about Cincinnati's crew team: <a href="http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/am/am1804/talkingtitleix.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.momentummedia.com/articles/am/am1804/talkingtitleix.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>It is true that 400 men's DI sports teams have been cut since Title IX went into affect. But the overall NUMBER of men playing sports at the DI level has increased: **In 2001 alone 143 men's soccer teams were added to collegiate sports programs<a href="%5Burl%5Dhttp://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/06/14/cf.crossfire/index.html">/b</a>. Of the 400 teams dropped since the 1970s, about 170 were wrestling programs, which could have been kept if football budgets were cut.</p>

<p>There are 128 D I-A schools with an average of 20 varsity teams each, amounting to 2560 teams total, and if half are men's teams then there are 1280 men's teams. Of course the ratio is off, so there are actually more.</p>

<p>There are an additional 140 D I-AA schools with football programs, which field a total of 245 varsity teams.</p>

<p>There are only 81 Division I non-football teams, which do not sponsor football, although some schools still field teams.</p>

<p>There are still plenty of opportunities for men to play sports. </p>

<p>I agree, schools should NOT cut other men's teams in order to comply with title IX. But they don't have to Any decision to cut another sport (wrestling, swimming, volleyball) is one made by the school, when they could easily cut the football budget INSTEAD.</p>

<p>In a previous post I mentioned San Diego State, a school which cut men's volleyball in order to comply with Title IX. That same year they spend a million dollars buying special face masks for their football team that only one other D I school had at the time.</p>

<p>Institutional priorities lie with preserving football not with preserving equal oppurtunities for men.</p>

<p>Your quarrel is with how individual schools CHOOSE to comply with Title IX. </p>

<p>Not with title IX itself.</p>

<p>"The difference between the parents and the students on this thread is one of perspective."</p>

<p>Exactly- and I have no deep dark secret of wanting to hold girls down or pump boys up. It really boils down to money, and I'm talking private donations not government funding. When people start telling you that you can't donate to this or that group until another group gets the same amount in donations...there is something wrong with that.</p>

<p>Between 2004 and 2007, our team parents pumped over $50K into the baseball program, mostly through their own generosity. We hold a fundraiser every year that nets about $5-10K, that doesn't need to cost a nickel on the part of parents- the kids go out and beat the pavement for pledges. Last year, the softball team parents were approached and asked if they'd like to participate. Their answer was no. We also have a concession, which is operated by the team parents. We approached the girls softball parents and asked if they would like to share costs and do a concession- their answer--too inconvenient, no one wants to work during the games. When one of the players and his dad built a dragger for the baseball field, they were asked/told that they should build one for the softball field. (WTH? This was their OWN MONEY and TIME!) Yet when our clubhouse was being built a year ago, they were the ones squalking about the unfairness. Who's being unfair?</p>

<p>Like I said, it has nothing to do with people being chauvinistic; it's about being told by those who sit and do nothing that you can't even use your own sweat and money to help yourself.</p>

<p>I actually agree with you on this.</p>

<p>Title IX in high school sports in a little trickier.</p>

<p>What the school board needs to do in situations like that is match your fundraising, which is unfair. OR outlaw outside donations.</p>

<p>It's not a great solution. But it is a fair one. That said, there are probably plenty of schools where softball does do lots of fundraising and/or NEITHER baseball nor softball need to fund raise at all.</p>

<p>
[quote]
no one complains about the fact that the boy/girl ratio in the fine arts is unbalanced, and there is just as much expense associated with that as with sports. Why?

[/quote]

Apples & oranges. I've never heard of a single co-ed school that has only a single-sex chorus. (Some schools do have single sex groups in addition to co-ed chorus, but not to its exclusion. Or if they do, they have both a male and female group.) Nor are boys cut out of dance classes (at those schools that offer it) or clubs. In fact, they're often admitted more easily into those clubs, and welcomed with open arms, because there are so few who want it.</p>

<p>To follow the arguments of those who say that Title IX is a problem and relate it to performing arts, it would more likely go like this: Girls are much more interested in performing arts. So the girls' chorus should be twice as big as the boys'. And why bother allowing boys to dance? They're not interested. Let's just have it for girls, and if a boy wants to dance he can go to a studio. And let's just do plays and musicals with all-female casts, or cast girls in the boys' parts. Since boys aren't as interested, that's fair, right?</p>

<p>Doubleplay, the problems you discuss with parents getting involved happen in everything. Locally, a school system rejected a parent's offer to buy computers for each classroom in an elementary school because the parent wouldn't pay for each classroom in all the elementary schools. Another parent offered to fund one or two teams, but was turned down because the school couldn't accept restricted funds. It's not just sports, and it's not just Title IX.</p>

<p>Doubleplay and SES: At our kids' high school the athletic boosters club collects all fundraising proceeds, regardless of source, and then distributes it in equal parts to all sports teams, including the cheer squad. It solves a lot of problems, including the ever-present issue of the booster dad who tries to buy little Johnnie a place in the lineup with a big donation. Exceptions have been made - and yes, booster dad does expect a payback on his investment. It's ugly if he gets it, ugly if he doesn't.</p>

<p>I've been a perennial volunteer for lots of things involving my kids (schools, little league, soccer league - you name it) and while volunteerism can be a good thing, relying on it for basics - like high school field maintenance - is asking for trouble. </p>

<p>Doubleplay: it isn't really "generosity" if it's only for your kids' team, is it?</p>

<p>Is it "generosity" if you only give to your college and not all 3500 or so? After all you get some benefit if your school gets better with the $$$.</p>