<p>Do you agree with Merriam-Webster's definition of God (the definition on which you base your hypothesis that God is either non-existent or His existence can't be proven) : "the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe"?</p>
<p>Do you agree that, in mathematical terms, something that's non-existent is less than perfect?</p>
<p>just out of curiosity</p>
<p>hey just browsing around...
i encountered the same question this summer when i attended a philosophy lecture. According to this philosopher in Cantabury forgot his name, the mathematical/philosophical explanation for the existence of God is based partly on the Webster's def. of God. If God is omnipotent, and all-powerful, then he much exist. Becuase there's a "limit" to reality that allows God to be "real". For example, think about a super toaster. You can always think of a "better" super toaster in your mind, be it its ability to toast bread quicker, or have more watts or whatever, the point is that your imagination is infinite. The same applies to God. If you can always think of a God that is "better" and more Powerful then the one your friend thinks of, then God would not be the "most" powerful. Thus, logically, god exist.
i think this explanation is too cynical and as Kant said, existence if not a propoerty, we can't just probe the existence of God by logic alone.</p>
<p>Jojo - I think you mean "logically, god doesn't exist." My objection to that argument is that the human imagination is not infinite - it has certain definite limits. First, you cannot break with reason - you can imagine a really really tall hill but not a hill without a valley, you can imagine a super triangle but not a triangle whose interior angles don't add up to two right angles. Second, your imagination <em>cannot</em> reason with certain concepts - first principles. Try as you might, you can't envision infinite, you can't really conceive of all-powerful, you can't define virtue, and nothing the human mind knows is "outside of time and space." However, the lack of any material examples hasn't stopped us from throwing around these ideas for millenia - because we cannot conceive of infinite doesn't mean that there isn't infinity, because we can't define virtue doesn't mean we don't denote something virtuous, because we cannot know truth, we don't necessarily say there isn't any. I don't mean to fall back on the argument that there is truth, but we can't understand it (which is... well... stupid), but rather that that argument doesn't have to be a dead end.</p>
<p>Schnauzer - What do you mean by existence? Generally the highest genus is existence - it either is or isn't - including all things potential. There is not, and will never be, a hill without a valley. I will not still love someone in a few years, does that mean my love for that person does not exist? Computers were not around centuries ago, but even then computers "existed" within reason. Because the imagination can only conceive of things that exist or could potentially exist, God is not at all disproven in that we cannot grasp it - in the same way infinity, and equal, and perfect, and virtue are not disproven by our inability to define them.</p>
<p>It is impossible to <em>know</em> that God does not exist. Because if God does not exist, you will never know it.</p>
<p>What I've never understood is how absolute good or absolute evil can exist in Christianity (a supposed monothesism); if God was omnipotent and "perfect in goodness," then why would he let the Devil exist or bad things happen? So, no, He's not perfect, regardless of existance.</p>
<p>I personally just don't like the idea of the Christian God or Christianity. Too preocupied with afterlife, God is too "buddy buddy," things just don't add up, for me.<br>
Either way, I'm not read up enough to present a good argument.</p>
<p>Julius, your logic is flawed completely. One of the main premises of Christianity is that God delegated some of his will to people. Why would he let the devil exist: the same reason he lets anything exist. He wants to give a person the chance to be happy. The devil had a great deal of potential to do great things; however, he used his potential in a negative way. Christianity says that this is the choice we all must make. </p>
<p>You may ask, "Why would God give us free will? Wouldn't it be easier if He just had everyone love one another?" The whole point of free will is to have the ability to choose love over hately freely. If we were forced to love each other, would that really be significant?</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I am no expert and an agnostic myself. I just have some answers for the routine questions.</p>
<p>averagemathgeek, here's the problem I have with your argument: God, as the creator of the Universe, defined what it meant to be "good," "evil," and "happy." As he is generally considered omniscient, He would have "known" that Satan would rebel against Him before he even created him. God could give people the illusion of free will, because if people were truly free, there would be doubt about what they would do in the future. An omniscient being cannot have doubt. Even if humans do have the illusion of free will, God would still know which humans would turn out "good" and which would become "evil" before He created the world.</p>
<p>Well, I do not think God knows the future. I think He knows all of the possibilities. God did not know Satan would be such a jerk. God gave Satan the ability to do great things. The crucial thing is this: free will is a gift from God. He gave up some of His "will" so we would have the ability to enter into a loving relationship with Him, according the Christian doctrine.</p>
<p>Furthermore, who said God had doubts? He knows everything that can happen. He knows that people have the potential to do good and bad things. He knows that it is up to the person to decide what they do with their free will. If He has doubt about what we do, He has it because it was His will to have doubt. He wanted to have doubt. If He know who would love or reject Him, the loving relationship between Him and us would not be as valid. It would just be clockwork.</p>
<p>Actually, in spherical geometry, you can have a triangle whose interior angles add up to 270...</p>
<p>Well, average and normir, I see where both of you are coming from. </p>
<p>So average, do you believe that no matter how we "act" on our free will, that we end up at our "destined" place? If so, Satan would have been fated (if that's a word) to be evil, and wouldn't that have been God's doing?<br>
If you don't believe in pre-destination, then your argument would be (and is) logical.</p>
<p>It all depends on how you interpret the beliefs, or even which you choose to accept.</p>
<p>About predestination: I was reading a book that said how God fully knows what kind of decisions each of us is going to make. Even before we were born into this world God knew which souls were good and which souls were evil, and God assigns our souls to the circumstances that we deserve. </p>
<p>I like reading religious stuff and comparing it but I can't fully believe in anything because I simply don't know, and the same thing goes for predestination. I can understand how God can see into the future (this doesn't mean he controls it) but I can't fully comprehend why he would give souls the circumstances they deserve. This is easy to understand if he gives a good soul the means to do good deeds but would God give an evil soul the means to commit crime in which good souls are often the victims?</p>
<p>I don't know why we are here. I read a translation of the Quran to learn more about Islam and the translator wrote in the appendix and said that we are here to redeem ourselves since we did not make a firm stand with God's absolute authority during a feud in Heavenly society. So life her on earth is our last chance to redeem ourselves in the eyes of God. This seems plausible since life is hard and you have to struggle to do the right thing but then we have no memory or true comprehension of our pre-birth experiences. So how can one truly believe in this or any other explanation?</p>
<p>What I believe that humans create and something created us (the next question is who created the creator?). When we die it is not the end us. I am aware that I exist and the only time that I am not aware is when I am sleep and not dreaming. Although I did not exist before 1983 my mind can not grasp of the concept of not existing. But then I also can't grasp the concept of eternal life, or eternal awareness.</p>
<p>Calidan - no, not in unwarped, Euclidean geometry. We say that 3d shape's a sort of triangle because it's triangular. Well, what's triangular? It looks like a Euclidean triangle. It's just equivocation.</p>
<p>Since I'm an agnostic I really don't care ... I'd like to think I am a good father, husband, son, friend, and citiizen of the world ... that ought to take care of me when the time comes if need be</p>
<p>I too am an agnostic, but I have atheist tendencies. If you can prove to me that God does exist, I'll be more than happy to believe. However, since it is essentially fact that no one can prove the existance of God, I find it extremely hard to believe in one. I have morals and try to be a good person at all times so I think I am covered on those bases as well.</p>
<p>I just find it hard to believe in something that for over 20,000 years, no one has been able to prove.</p>
<p>This question goes out to all of the believers in God...Does it not strike any of you that the idea of God was created by a human thousands of years ago? The Bible was written by a human and that is suppossedly the word of God, so then doesn't that mean that God is human?</p>
<p>Considering that only a minute number of people do not believe in God's existence, I think the burden of proof is on the atheist.</p>
<p>"I just find it hard to believe in something that for over 20,000 years, no one has been able to prove."</p>
<p>What type of proof are you looking for? Many people accept God's existence based on the relationship that they have formed with him. If you are looking for a scientific proof, then you need to realize the difficulty of your question. We have not scientifically proved our own existence. Have you considered the possibility that God's existence could be beyond the reach of science?</p>
<p>Why do you believe humans created the idea of God thousands of years ago?</p>
<p>"The Bible was written by a human and that is suppossedly the word of God, so then doesn't that mean that God is human?"</p>
<p>What is wrong with a human writting the Bible? God is certainly not a human. However, that does not mean He cannot give us guidence. A local pastor I know said (I am not sure of the wording), "We are within God, and He is within us."</p>
<p>Actually, averagemathgeek, 20% of the world does not believe in a God. That really isnt a minute amount. Seeing as how the three major religions of Buddhism, Christianity and Islam are split farily equally, each about 19-20%, to say that those who dont believe are a small minority is very very ignorant.</p>
<p>Ok. I really don't like discussing religion because people vary so much on the issue. However, the idea of a Christian God (i.e. the way Merriam Webster defined it) cannot...possibly...exist. Seriously, think about it logically. Think about from an atheists shoes. I was once religious, I had a Bar-Mitzvah. I have seen both sides and through logic have come to realize that religion is pretty much a scam. I am happy with the idea that it gives people solice at times and helps them to heal their wounds as well as the wounds of others. But the vast majority of the time, it is nothing more than a group of people who give money to a collective which then in turn uses that money to build more religious sanctuaries to make more money..and the cycle continues.</p>
<p>This is not meant to be a demeaning post in any way, shape or form. These are my beliefs. I am sorry if I have offended anyone in this post. This is not a flame and I do not wish to start a flame war.</p>
<p>Thank you for your time.</p>
<p>I am not a fan of organized religion either, mostly because many of people who claim to belong to a certain religion twist it to fit their own needs. While there are true followers, in my eyes organized religion is more corrupt than good because I hear more about the bad than the good.</p>
<p>God: Well, I believe that something created us but I often have a hard time putting faith in something that I can't see, touch, or hear. But I want to believe that our purpose on earth is to live honorable lives and that we will be judged for our actions after death. I believe life is a test of conduct. It would be a huge disappointment if I were to suffer the same fate as those who do nothing but spread crime and evil. I want to know that my good deeds will be rewarded and that John Doe will be punished for his bad deeds.</p>
<p>Wow this stuff is messing with my head.</p>
<p>I can see where all of you are coming from with all of your points, it makes a great deal of sense. Since I'm here and I just read all of your stuff, I'll offer my two cents.</p>
<p>I'm with jaug1 on the religion thing: religion was created by man, whether it had guidance from God or not. If the Bible was written by humans, then it cannot be taken as the supreme word of God, and we cannot condemn nor praise people based on it. Religion is a way for people to get in a common group and celebrate amongst themselves, and, many times, be prejudiced against other groups.</p>
<p>Despite this, I do believe there is a God. Scientifically, we can trace the existence of the universe to one moment in time: the big bang. According to scientists, this was just a random explosion of energy and matter, triggered by nothing. Before the big bang, there was nothing, and after, there was something. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a creationist or anything, but if scientists can't explain what it was that set this whole thing into motion, I have to believe it was something greater. We didn't just happen. I realize this is a personal idea, but that is my proof.</p>
<p>My dad said there was a book written that gave a bunch of givens and did indeed prove the existence of god, based on those givens...I don't know what it is, maybe I could ask him if you guys care. </p>
<p>I guess I am one of those believers, not necessarily in religion, but in spirituality...I want to be aware that there is something bigger than me going on, and we've got an average of 70 years or so to figure it out, so I'm going for it.</p>
<p>Jaug1, I apologize if I underestimated the number of atheists. In any case, they are outnumbered 4 to 1 and I believe that in any situation that would place the burden of proof on them. Furthermore, I think you are arguing against organized religion as opposed to spirituality. It seems you were dissatisfied with the belief system that your family imposed on you and you broke away from the idea of God completely. I hope I am not being too presumptuous. I agree that the churches have corruption. This is just further evidence of free will, in my opinion.</p>
<p>Why should I think about it from an atheist point of view? You are preaching logic, yet you just told me to introduce bias to my thoughts. I think about it from a logical yet personal view. Keep in mind that I too am an agnostic; contrary to you, I have theist tendencies. However, my results have been derived from introspection and nonscientific observations.</p>
<p>What is wrong with the cycle of church growth? The population increases and more churches are built. Unfortunately, the church system must work in a world built around money. Thus, it needs money to survive and to help its members.</p>
<p>Finally, I think you are being too pessimistic. You may see it as realistic, and I do not doubt the plausibility of your points. However, by rejecting certain things, you eliminate the objectivity of your observations. I felt the same way as you until I opened myself up to the possibility that God existed. And besides, what do you have to lose by giving Him a chance?</p>
<p>Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson</p>