<p>that is not true that a minute number of people do not believe in god's existent. its a proven study that more than 60% of the "said" christians in the united states alone truly believe that they really are agnostic/athetist. they just mark themselves as christian for celebrating christmas and easter - which is true for the majority of christians. majority of asian religions also do not believe in the "existence of a god" i myself come from a buddhist family. </p>
<p>The idea of God did not formulate thousands of years ago. During BC, most religions were polytheisms where there were multiple gods which have already lost credible ground. Religions phase in and out. In the future, I strongly believe current religions will fade out and new ones will fade in. Thats just how it is. These stories are created over time and then some random bright guy decides to create some followers. People today believe so much in the Christian God that they do not stop and think, wait, thousands of people in the past believed in the Greek Gods, Nordic Gods, Indian Gods. What happened to that? It died out. </p>
<p>It is not the atheists that need the burden of proof. There is so much proof out there disproving God especially. Over time people have become more lenient, more accepting, less "hardcore and strict with the bible". if you look at how people use to interpret the bible and how people do now, its 100% different. wouldnt u think that the people in the past would have a better understanding of the words of christ? Christianity itself has so many conflicting passages within the bible. Peopel depict Christ as a man with long hair when clearly in Mark it says that for a man to have long hair is sinful. The first 4 pages of Genesis constantly contradict itself. Passages in John conflict with passages in Luke. If u read it from beginning to end, it becomes a total joke. </p>
<p>What kind of relation have you created with God? Do you talk to him? I might as well talk to an imaginary friend and create the same type of relationship. Its what your mind believes. Its kind of like Calvin and Hobbes. He believes that Hobbes is alive and converses with him. Kinda like God. Its whether you make urself want to believe hes there or not.</p>
<p>lol "what do you lost by giving him a chance" a chance at what? what am i opening my life to? if i declare myself open to him rite now whats gonna happen? nothing. im gonna have to go make myself want to believe he exists, basically brainwash myself, eliminating all my knowledge and re-experiencing naivety in order to completely convince myself that god exists</p>
<p>Heh, there was an article in Time magazine a little while back that described the biological science behind a religious experience. It's like, if you pray hard enough, you can actually activate the limbic system (responsible for happiness and gratification) and at the same time deactivate a part of your brain that's responsible for spatial perception, giving one the feeling that they are at one with the world. Such experiences are not 'finding god', they're just complex body chemistry.</p>
<p>jaug1, do you actually believe you can rightfully claim that the Christian God cannot possibly exist? Secondly, how many issues anyone think of that have not been resolved for thousands of years (okay, besides the Middle East)? That is one of the beauties of religion...if it was proven true, everyone would believe it...that's where "faith" comes in. Still, no matter how much someone believes that they are "sure" God isn't real, no one can prove it. It annoys me to see people say "let's think about this logically!" That is the exact opposite of what we should do. As a Christian, I understand that I cannot undertand everything. Just as we know there are certainly things animals can't comprehend, how ignorant would it be to say that we, as humans, can completely understand God and the universe?</p>
<p>A good example would be comparing a dog and its master to humanity and God. The dog certainly doesn't know why the master does things and certainly can't understand the complexities of even their own existence. Does a dog ever want to go to the vet? No way. My dog goes crazy everytime we get near the vet's office. But the dog cannot see the big picture. It only understands relatively little. But we, as more intelligent than dogs, know that going to the vet will help the dog. The dog wonders why its owner would ever do this to him. Still, the dog knows that, even though he might not like the vet, his master loves him and would not make him go through pain for nothing...</p>
<p>Wow, that was longwinded. I said all that to say, don't think you can "logically" disprove the existence of God because that is outrageously ignorant. How do we know what lies beyond the limits of our comprehension?</p>
<p>The dog-vet analogy is pretty horrible. If a dog is sick, I have two, believe me, they come to you, cry and you realize that they arent feeling well. It is intuitive for all humans to feel sympathetic and have a connection to other animals because we are animals as well. Why do we immediately consider ourselves smarter than dogs? I certainly dont.</p>
<p>The problem I see with your argument Frylock is that of course I cannot disprove the existance of God, but can you prove it to me? Why should I have faith in something that since its inception into humanity has never been able to be proven? Using logic is the exact way to go in thinking about this issue because as I see it, you are afraid to use logic because you know that if you do, your faith will be destroyed. Again, as a former believer in God and having had a Bar-Mitzvah, I understand where you are coming from. As one goes into maturity, it is necessary to look at what one believes though a logical microscope. I recommend to all people that they do that. If you still believe in God after that, I have no problem and I fully respect that. Much good has come from those who believe in God.</p>
<p>Also, why not in a later stage of human development could we one day understand the universe? I mean, think about being in the 1400's and someone telling you that one day humans would build machines that could fly us to the moon. You would have thought that person was crazy and that we could never do it because it was incomprehensible at the time. Well, we eventually did do it because through a succession of mathematical and scientific breakthroughs, we discovered the way.</p>
<p>I have no problem with those that believe in God nor can I say that I can disprove the existance of God, but when the existance of God cannot be proven and has not been proven since its inception into society, I cannot believe in it logically. That is just my opinion.</p>
<p>I agree with jaug; the burden of proof rests on the believers because it is their philosophy, not ours! Atheism is not a philosophy. If we are speaking logically as in philosophy nobody can rely on their own faith. </p>
<p>I believe that spirituality has an evolutionary origin & humans survived largely because of the relatively high intelligence that allowed us to make fire, tools, and to think logically about situtations. A necessary consequence: we don't think just "I want meat" but "How do I get meat", "where does the meat come from". Until very recently this was all that was necessary, thus the proliferation of polytheism as shrek mentioned that developed independently in almost all areas of the world - "It comes from the meat god". Why is there no meat - she is angry. A guess: this actually increased survival chances as a specific, intangible thing was to blame for problems rather than members of your own tribe/clan. However I disagree with shrek in that religions fade in and out randomly. When structured civilizations began there were of course different problems. "Why does the king have meat and I have dried peas"; "Hey - why am I not the king (note upper-class in many civilizations including Rome manipulating existing polytheisms to their advantage)!"; "WHO AM I ANYWAY?" Thus the beginnings of philosophy and also a more favorable climate for monotheisms - Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all rose to fame through large cities imo because of the large number of unhappy people low in the social hierarchy who feel that no god loves them and cannot explain their low position relative to the higher powers. Thus the loving God. Religious beliefs are a reflection of predominating conditions at the time, just as no philosophy is created in a vacuum. "Under an invisible spell, they always revolve once more in the same orbit; however independent of each other they may feel themselves with their critical or systematic wills ...", as Nietzsche said about philosophy in indo-european languages. </p>
<p>Frylock I see two options: either decide it's beyond my comprehension and therefore believe in any Lord(s) of the closest place of worship (what other option can this blind "faith" you advocate offer? If I was raised Muslim, could you tell me why to place Faith in the Christian god over my own?) or, to play upon the few strings we have which include that same logical mindset I mentioned before, and try to figure things out by looking at the world and history logically.
Why does the Bible call knowledge evil? It is jealous.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>My analogy is basic, but it works. Of course sceptics can analyze the hell out of it, but it makes perfect sense. Sheesh, you people jump on anything to criticize...maybe it makes you feel better.</p></li>
<li><p>glowingamy, I'm not arguing in favor of Christianity, I'm arguing in favor of the fact the I believe God exists.</p></li>
<li><p>Yeah, the Bible is "jealous" of knowledge...give me a break. The Bible views knowledge much like money. You have to use it to God's will, otherwise it might corrupt you.</p></li>
<li><p>To claim religion is for the unhappy people is just plain dumb. Some of the most affluent, attractive, successfu, joyous people in history have been religious.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>1) You didn't refute glowingamy's and my argument against the analogy. You simply say that thinking about it logically is bad. Why?</p>
<p>3) The problem with what you just said is that the knowledge you use to do God's will comes solely from the Bible. Using your money analogy, why is it then that those who are extremely wealthy and claim that their success is from God do not help those who really need it?</p>
<p>4) Why would they not be religious? It is an easy way to say that they are "blessed" versus others who are not. In their minds, it is a way to justify all the good and bad things they have done in life which have made them successful.</p>
<p>Frylock: You say you believe in God's existence? Which God? You see, that is my biggest problem with this whole issue. God is just a word we use to describe something indescribable. But God is different things to different people. Even within Christianity, different Christians have very different ideas about exactly what God wants from us and what God thinks is right or wrong. That alone would make it hard for me to believe in "God", because I don't even know who or what God is because so many people say so many different things.
I guess one could believe in God in terms of what is in their own heart. So, if God means, whatever an individual considers as a greater being or power that created us, I guess that makes sense. But, that would have to be absolutely independent of any organized religion because they strictly define what God is. Therefore, if you believed in a religion's definition of God, then that is endorsing that specific religion and, more so, that specific sect and church.</p>
<p>2: you're right, sorry. However please elaborate on the topic of "faith" and why it is virtuous - is faith having an inner feeling that God exists? this goes back to logical thinking. Just as it's beneficial to question self-destructive impulses and arrive at their origin by thinking logically, isn't it beneficial to question all impulses, positive-feeling ones and "faith" included? </p>
<p>4: I didn't say it was only for the unhappy; I said it especially appealed to them. I believe the idea of God is inherently appealing to all humans.</p>
<p>God created the universe, he created mankind. He is the all-knowing, omniscient being. We are created from God and when I was created, God knew that I was going to reject him. God knew that I was going to be an Atheist. God knew that I would never go to church, I would never agree with the Bible, I would never accept Him. So basically, God created me and millions of others to forever damn me to hell. Why would he do that? hmmm....</p>
<p>god doesnt lie beyond the limits of our comprehension. he was created by the imagination of man. u dont comprehend him. u imagine him, whether u choose to or not</p>
<p>i think god and religion serves more as a safety net. as a back up to those who are weak or need confidence. people pray to god to do well on a test. people pray to god to succeed. are u that pathetic that you cant do this on ur own? u need "gods" help to do so?</p>
<p>I do have a specific religion, but that is pretty irrelevant. To claim that you have to be able to logically define every aspect of "God" is defeating the entire purpose of religion. grammy, I agree with you almost completely. Still, the same people who claim that God is something indescribable say that God doesn't exist. For someone to be atheist means they do not believe in any sort of spirituality or any kind of higher power. The word "god" maybe somewhat vague, but it does convey the sense that someone believes in something other than what tangibly exists in the universe. Yes, I am in an organized religion that I personally believe is the true religion, like it or not. I have thought about it often and have challenged myself to prove time and time again why I believe that way I do, and it has made my faith stronger. I'm not here to convert anyone here, but I am here to say that maybe you shouldn't be so quick to discount something just because you don't logically understand it.</p>
<p>Wow, okay, let me try to clear some of this up. God knows everything, yes, completely true. But God did not decide that you should go to hell, but he knows that if you don't accept him you will. He does know whether or not you will, but the decision is 100% your own. Even though he knows what will eventually happen, he created you so you would accept and love him, not to condemn you to hell.</p>
<p>"God created the universe, he created mankind. He is the all-knowing, omniscient being. We are created from God and when I was created, God knew that I was going to reject him. God knew that I was going to be an Atheist. God knew that I would never go to church, I would never agree with the Bible, I would never accept Him. So basically, God created me and millions of others to forever damn me to hell. Why would he do that? hmmm...."</p>
<p>shrek2004, that is why I am an atheist. That could, of course, lead into arguments of free will and such, but the basic point presented here is that if God were real, he would pre-destine many (most?) humans do damnation. Furthermore, he defined the meaning of the concepts of "good" and "evil" and created "Hell." If all existence is the creation of God, then it is unreasonable to say that God "must" pre-destine people to damnation in order for free will to exist.</p>
<p>I'm not sure you guys can see the difference between "knowing" and "pre-destining." Just because God knows something that is going to happen does not mean he is the one making the decision.</p>
<p>Off topic but
Frylock I am genuinely curious how your faith was reaffirmed through questioning! Some of the most intelligent people I know converted to Christianity as adults and I did not understand why. What were your reasons: I will not tear them apart in ad hominem manner.</p>
<p>glowingamy, I'm glad you asked. Just last night I was talking with one of my Muslim friends who asked the question, "Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn't God just forgive everyone of their sins without Jesus dying?" I love when people ask me these sort of questions because, honestly, sometimes they are questions that I have had personally but do not ask. Most of the intelligent questions force me to question certain aspects of my religion. This question in particular puzzled me for a long time until an I suddenly had an epiphany. I don't guess the answer is really pretinent (if you'd like me to fully explain it, I could email it to you.) The real issue is that as soon as I conlude why or how something in my religion exists, I understand more fully why I believe in it. I have never once had a question that after meditation and prayer I could not understand, at least to the level of my ability.</p>
<p>most christians believed in destiny and fate until recently (as in the past 100 years or so). free will is a generally new idea that has now been overwhelmingly accepted by society. its not only that god is all-knowing and omniscient but to many he also determines our fate.</p>