To Another Asian Boy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
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<p>Laura, btw are you the high-techer? I do believe that one form of discrimination is better or worse than others. I think AA is a much better discrimination than racial genocide going on elsewhere in the world.</p>

<p>Also, I think the double acceptance rate springs from more male applicants than female applicants. Female applicants are not as inclined to apply to tech schools (I'm not making a sexist remark, it's a fact - the numbers for females are lower). Same thing with Asians. I think MIT has a higher Asian applicant pool than most schools. That's why the numbers are skewed and it seems as though MIT doesn't accept as many Asians due to the AA policy. You are using one statistic without considering other confounding variables.</p>

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<p>Don't ask me to make sense of what I said. Crap as in "dumb." <em>shrug</em> I just don't like it, that's all I really meant. And yeah, I am a "tecker." It's that obvious? =D</p>

<p>-Laura</p>

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<p>Haha, I'm a manalapan hs SNERD (science/engineering), hows tifftang doing?</p>

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<p>why did you have to mention RSI?</p>

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<p>Streetlight is right - Of course, I don't speak for all girls, but most girls have to fight against a hellova lot more parental pressure to apply to a school like MIT, that's for sure. We can't just stick in an application for the hell of it like the guys do and expect consolation when we don't get in. Above all else, my parents want me to go to Yale - they want me to be a doctor, not an "engineer" (girls don't do that) and would have rubbed it in my face had I not gotten in. I have really yet to meet a female applicant to MIT that did not look damn good in any application pool (be it Harvard, Yale, Brown, whatever), I can't say the same for the guys - especially Asian Males who are usually encouraged to apply to tech schools like MIT regardless. So, do consider other factors when making assumptions based on a few numbers.</p>

<p>Perhaps this is nit-picky but you don't GIVE acceptance rates, they're tabulated after the fact, it could hardly be called discrimination. I'm sure they have very little idea of the actual percentages of male vs. female acceptances during the selection process - who would bother doing that as they go?</p>

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<p>I just want to say that MIT isn't stupid. If you are a million dollar hispanic, you won't get advantage. If you are a poor asian in the slums, you will. It is all about the opportunity you have, and what you made of it.</p>

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<p>Streetlight: Tiff's good....going to UPenn, I believe.</p>

<p>Pebbles: I honesty haven't experienced that at all. (To be honest though, I'm a first-generation college student-to-be, so my parents are slightly clueless.) I don't mean to take away from anything you've experienced, because like I said, I can't begin to understand. But from my point of view...I honestly think our generation has had "you can be anything you want to be when you grow up" bashed into our skulls most thoroughly, and I think a lot of us really and truly believe that. In my personal opinion, today's generation of women will have a totally different battle to fight- we'll have to figure out how in the world to define ourselves in a world in which we're not only encouraged to be anything- we're finding ourselves being EVERYTHING, and all at once too. </p>

<p>Besides, being a female doctor isn't too far from being a female engineer, as far as I can tell. =D</p>

<p>I'm not saying that injustice doesn't happen, but those are just my two cents.</p>

<p>-Laura</p>

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<p>I agree with pebbles and streetlight here! I can't speak from my own experience but just some of the attitudes I've perceived from others seem to echo what they're describing. Clearly not what everyone goes through, but it’s what many do. The trouble we run into is that these trends can't be presented to us in a quantifiable form, that’s frustrating! But to the admission people that look through tens of thousands of apps, I'm guessing they have a pretty good idea.</p>

<p>MIT is one of the finest academic institutions in the world; they're doing something right. To say MIT doesn't have an interest in underrepresented groups would be wrong. But it's not wrongful discrimination. MIT has programs like MITES and WTP to INTEREST people in engineering and technology. That doesn't seem characteristic of a place practicing discriminatory admissions.</p>

<p>theleet is claiming that under qualified individuals are being accepted, where's the proof? There isn't any, because it just isn't true. 95% of the people that apply to MIT are intelligent and wonderful people. No one should take a rejection (or deferral) personally. People can live happy and fulfilled lives even if they didn't make it into their first choice college.</p>

<p>I have to ask one question to theleet; if you think MIT admissions are so biased, why do you have an interest in MIT? Surely, you wouldn't want to go to a university you believed had an unjust admission policy! I think it'd be interesting to see what you do if accepted next round.....</p>

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<p>From what I've seen, girls interested in science are far from being discouraged. Instead, it's always "OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD! You're so smart! How can you be so good at science?"</p>

<p>frankchris1: Do you really think programs like MITES and WTP suddenly and magically give participants an interest in engineering (sorry if I misinterpreted, that's what it sounds like)? It's more likely that the people who go there are already interested and talented in those fields. It just makes more sense--is MIT going to accept some minority who has never shown any interest in science and just applied for the heck over it over another who's won a number of awards in the area?
Plus, I sort of think that MIT is, in a way, practicing discriminatory admissions in only having those special MITES and WTP programs for minorities, and none for white/Asian males--not even white/Asian males coming from "disadvantaged backgrounds" (RSI isn't specially for them).</p>

<p>Also, I don't think anyone is claiming that underqualified idiots are being accepted. Hypothetical situation: suppose there are two <em>equally qualified</em> applicants, an Asian male and a Hispanic female, and MIT can, for whatever reason, accept only one. Suppose even that the Asian male is slightly--only very slightly--better. I think what theleet and theasianboy are saying is that MIT will without hesitation take the Hispanic female. It's what I believe, anyways.
Or remember what Matt McGann wrote in his blog, that MIT could easily fill an equally qualified class using the applicants that they were forced to reject. I think we're saying that a disproportionate number of these equally qualified rejectees will be Asian males.</p>

<p>And just because we think MIT admissions are biased doesn't mean we can't have an interest in it. You've never found flaws in things you love? It's just that we wish some things could change.</p>

<p>Last point: please stop saying that every rejected Asian male who's against AA is just bitter (I don't know if it came up in this discussion, but it did in some previous ones). We could say just as easily that every minority who's for AA just doesn't want to think that MIT gave them some special, undeserved boost.</p>

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<p>Well you've been lucky, Laura, I completely respect your opinions but please, don't speak for us all - as I recall, you attend a technology-focused high school, the sampling of women you see there is not representative of the majority for obvious reasons. </p>

<p>(really, the same goes for nljshwop, I dont know if you happen to be a girl but general science is looked upon very differently than technology, and if you really dont think girls are discouraged from tech, then you haven't talked to many of those girls at all)</p>

<p>Oh, and in addition: MITES is open to Asians. I personally know many asians that attended the program.</p>

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<p>The title "MITES" is actually a misnomer at this point...it is open to people of all ethnic backgrounds, selection is now based on socioeconomic history, not race.</p>

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<p>to add to pebble's point (and speaking as a girl interested in technology), i've been the only one in a group of boys more often than not - and that in itself can be discouraging to some. especially a girl who could have, say, a budding interest in technology, but is intimidated by the thought of people looking down their noses at her and/or saying things like "OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD!"</p>

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<p>

amen .</p>

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<p>"theleet is claiming that under qualified individuals are being accepted, where's the proof? There isn't any, because it just isn't true. 95% of the people that apply to MIT are intelligent and wonderful people. No one should take a rejection (or deferral) personally. People can live happy and fulfilled lives even if they didn't make it into their first choice college."</p>

<p>I have NEVER said that somebody underqualfied has been accepted. I am merely voicing my opinion on the discrimination against Asians, and in this case, males.</p>

<p>@ nljshwop Nice to see you here. that brings the soldier count to 3. Us against the world. PM me.</p>

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<p>It's not about race. It's about the circumstances and obstacles they had to overcome. You don't know the obstacles some of the underrepresented minorities had to overcome to get where they are. The admissions people take THIS into consideration and the numbers just show it to be discriminitory towards asians. Let me give an example:</p>

<p>I worked in a lab in Newark over the summer. I was the only student there with the exception of an African American female from the inner city of Newark. I was absolutely amazed by her dedication, coming every single day from 8-5 to work in a biomedical research lab. I found it much more impressive that she came every day from 15 minutes away than my hour long train ride to newark. I sat on the subway with her once while her friends were also there. They were all taunting her telling her that they should all go hang out and watch the basketball game. Half of her 17-year old friends had babies in carriages. She told me how her parents were angry with her for not helping around the house or working to help them out and instead finsihing high school and working at the lab. I saw how the rest of her peers were over that summer when I'd walk the city to get lunch. Sure, she may not have been the most competent lab student and maybe wasn't as quick to get things done, but her drive and care for learning really struck me.</p>

<p>Most of us live in communities that stress and encourage us to do well in college, giving us the school guidance, parental help to go on to college, and encouragement from our peers. We have so much opportunity and most of us only take part in a fraction of what we can do with ourselves (or enough to impress a college). Other students, like the girl at my lab, do not have the opportunities and are discouraged by their communities for going off to four-year institutions, yet she went above and beyond what was expected of her. I cannot even imagine what hardships and obstacles she went through.</p>

<p>If I was in admissions and I had the choice of admitting two students with exactly same credentials, one being me and the other being that girl from Newark, I would undoubtedly admit her. Not because I'm Asian and she's African American, but because she has shown much more drive and love for learning than I have. Placed in an institution of higher education, where she has infinitely more opportortunites, imagine where she can take herself.</p>

<p>So all of you who believe you are "soldiers" for this unfounded issue of discrimination against Asians should put things into perspective and maybe appreciate what opportunities you have had in life.</p>

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<p>Pebbles: I didn't mean to speak for anyone but myself, so I hope no one got the wrong impression. Quite honestly, I ended up at my tech school as a total fluke. It had nothing to do with overcoming obstacles to puruse an intense interest in engineering. One of the ironies of life, I guess. When I appled to my (public) school, which focuses on engineering, I did it because I wanted to get out of my local home school district. My local high school is nicknamed "Heroin High," for one thing. They're famous for doing things like using masking tape to attach broken light fixtures to the ceiling. (Not even duct tape! Masking tapE! Haha.) Plus, I thought I'd be doing stuff like web design and digital video editing, so I figured I could deal with that. Then they went and changed it on me, and next thing I knew I was taking advanced physics, "Principles of Engineering" and a senior design project. Now here I am, accepted to MIT. Don't ask me how these things happen. But you're absolutely right, my school is not indicative of anything. My graduating class has 2 males to every female, and in classes like physics and engineering (which are electives), the ratio is even more drastic.</p>

<p>In a related tanget, nljshwop, when I went to my guidance office to ask for college materials, I was asked what I was interested in. I told her I wanted to be an engineer, and it was like the world grinded to a halt. She dropped what she was doing, gasped, and started gushing, "oh, and you're a GIRL too! Good for you!" and proceeded to rush around the office to find every booklet and magazine related to engineering that she could. I just rolled my eyes and got out of there as quickly as possible. When I showed up for the yearbook picture for robotics club, I was the only girl there. The advisor, who is one of my favorite teachers, had them take an extra shot of everyone pointing at me, the only girl in the middle of all these nerdy guys as a joke. The thing is, it was totally OK, because he knew he could do that with me. </p>

<p>But I guess I'm weird like that. I honestly don't mean to speak for anyone but myself, because I'm sure I'm pretty alone on this. But to me, I really don't care if I'm the only girl in a group. It doesn't even register. I don't care and I just really wish people would stop bringing attention to it and making it a big deal, when I don't consider it one. That said, I could see how it could royally suck for someone else. I'm a lot less "girly" than the average female, so I don't mind being surrounded by males. That's sorta what I mean when I say a lot of what women have to deal with is defining themselves. </p>

<p>I'm sorry for rambling.</p>

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<p>haha, the majority of my friends are guys as well - and I dont even go to an engineering high school :P I think my point was along the lines of encouragement and motivation, not really along the lines of fitting-in. I'm not bothered, personally, by the fact that I'll be a "minority" in the field at all, but I AM bother by my father lecturing me on an almost daily basis on how women engineers will "never get anywhere" and are doomed for failure in a male-dominant world. On the surface, everyone will spurt maxims such as "you can be anything you want to be" and tell me that I can succeed just as well as any male, but in my personal experience, anyone that has truly cared about my life and my future (parents, family, closest friends, etc) has pushed me away from it. I dont mean to speak for everyone either, but among the female EA admits I have spoken to, the general trend seems to be an uphill battle of sorts.</p>

<p>To echo streetlight's point - which I completely agree with - when motivation and general support/approval from family and society is against you, the applicant pool narrows pretty significantly by self-selection. Socioeconomic background, in my opinion, is actually weighed heavier than race alone - it just so happens, in our flawed society, that the majority of the low-income households are black/hispanic and that a much larger percentage of blacks/hispanics happen to fall into the low-income bracket. When you're working 2 jobs to support a large family and you are reprimanded for thinking "selfishly" of college and your studies, it takes a stronger will indeed to dream bigger than the world around you. For the rest of us pampered with attention for our straight As and extracurricular activities, it's hard to imagine succeeding without a single push to do so. Those that do overcome their circumstances may not have as impressive a resume, as high SAT scores, or as many patents to their name, but they'll go somewhere in life because they have "heart". Frankly, I believe they deserve their acceptances more than I do.</p>

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<p>@ streetlight + pebbles</p>

<p>isolated examples mean nothing.</p>

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<p>Oh in fact "isolated examples" do mean something if not everything. In fact, top college admissions look for students with those "isolated examples" because those are the type of people that they want their name to be associated with.</p>

<p>TheLeet, if you would like to counteract the "isolated example", please give an example where you would prove to be the more devoted and hearty candidate for a top level college.</p>

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<p>you can't draw conclusions from isolated examples and apply them to a whole population.</p>

<p>And stop making this about me. It's not about you, me, or anybody for that matter. This is bigger than any of us.</p>