(To Carolyn, Jamimom, or others) Confused about APs

Parents Forum
1

<h2>I am a rising Senior and am currently ranked #1(possibly 2) in my class. Next year, I want to take the most challenging curriculum (4 APs), but I am worried that it may be too much and that my grades/class rank would suffer. What do you suggest I do? Right now, my schedule is AP European History(maybe Gov't), AP Calculus AB, AP Latin, AP Human Geography, and Honors English.</h2>

<p>Also, the hardest class for me will definitely be AP Calc (I'm more History/English). If I got accepted ED to an Ivy League with my current schedule (having taken AP Calc for 1 quarter), and then dropped down to regular Calc after I was accepted, would colleges care? Should I even bother taking AP Calc if I'm not going to major in math/science?</p>

2

<p>Since it sounds like you are a terrific student, your schedule doesn't sound unrealistic to me. Challenging? Yes. But do-able, depending on your other responsibilties, such as EC committments. If you're aiming at Ivy-level schools this is about on par with what they will expect. </p>

<p>Regarding the calculus, a few questions: do you think it is likely that you will get at least a B in AP Calculus? If you're worried it will be a struggle, would you be willing and able to line up a tutor to help you out? Which AP Calc are we talking about - AB or BC? </p>

<p>I would not go into AP Calc. expecting to drop it after if I get accepted ED. That's likely to raise some eyebrows at selective schools (although it probably wouldn't get an ED acceptance yanked) I'd go into it planning to do my best and do well on the test. At some schools (but not most Ivies) doing well on the test might allow you to get out of math GE requirements (check with all of the schools on your list about this). Ivy level schools are going to be looking at whether you've challenged yourself --- and that means taking harder classes even in subjects you don't favor like math. </p>

<p>However, if you honestly don't think you can pull off at least a B (or higher), and maintain your GPA in other classes at the same time, then go for the regular calculus class. Just bear in mind that it might be a potential weakness when your transcript is compared to other applicants. But, then, so would a "C" in AP calculus! </p>

<p>One suggestion I would make if you're going with a challenging schedule next year is to try to get a head start on college application related things over the summer: start working on essays, draw up your activities list, figure out who you will be asking for recommendations. But, that's a good idea if you're thinking about EA or ED anyhow. </p>

<p>This is just my personal opinion. I'm sure Jamimom and other folks will have some other suggestions as well. Best of luck.</p>

3

<p>as an "other", I suggest you consider AP Comp Lit, if offered, in lieu of Human Geography (one of the so-called "ap lites") and honors Eng, particularly if you are gonna be an English-type.</p>

<p>Euro is a lot of work, but is a great course with a fun teacher.</p>

<p>As usual, I concur with Carolyn's points.</p>

4

<p>Blue, had a nice chuckle over you calling yourself "an other." But you raised an excellent point that I missed - AP English would be a better move than honors English, assuming it is offered. I would also choose AP Euro over AP Government. AP Government is also considered an "AP Lite" course.</p>

5

<p>AP Euro: An incredible amount of reading and LOTS of people/periods to cover. Much more difficult, I think, than APUSH. Plan to spend quite a bit of time keeping up with the reading.</p>

<p>AP Calc: This moves at a pace that is OK IF YOU KEEP UP with the concepts. If you begin to get lost, get help immediately! While this one may not have as much time committment every night as AP Euro, the important thing is to KEEP UP! Once you fall behind, it's double the work.</p>

<p>The other APs, I don't know about.</p>

<p>But, my son arranged his schedule (on a trimester system) so that all of the tough classes were completed by the first two trimesters. The last one, his only AP class was AP Physics. He only had three other classes for those last few months (Theater Production, Creative Writing, and Astronomy) which gave him plenty of time for senioritis and to enjoy his last couple of months in high school. Since you talked about "quarters," perhaps you can also do some creative scheduling.</p>

6

<p>I pretty much concur with Carolyn. Some questions: have you taken any AP courses yet as a junior? What is your school's record on AP test results? I am assuming you are taking Calc AB. How much more difficult is the AP Calc than the regular calc course? Have you taken SAT2s? Which ones and what are the scores? Also when you get any AP test results back, the results go into the profile as well. Where do the kids at your school tend to go to college with your SAT and class rank stats? </p>

<p>My son struggled with AP Calc AB all of this year. He would have dropped it mid year since he got into the school of his choice EA but he had a D at that point and I ended up getting a tutor for the rest of this year--hopefully he is at "B" level. It has been an issue this entire school year. A lot of the kids who got into the school of their choice did drop the course at mid year even though the school policy discourages this practice. At his school, however, the course is not designated as "AP" and anyone is permitted to take or not take the exam, though everyone who finished the course did end up taking the exam according to S. The calc was his concession to the fact that he hates foreign language and sciences except for Bio and he did not take Physics or a 4th year of foreign language or a history. In fact he only took 3 academics this year--the Calc, English and Art History and he did sit for the AP exams in all 3 subjects. He took the AP English comp, Bio and US history exams last year, and did very well on them. As far as he was concerned, he had taken a rigorous enough curriculum, and Yale seemed to agree as they accepted him early. But his school has a known reputation for its rigor, and his ECS and test scores were tops. He felt that any school would be nuts rating him on his math/science skills as there are so many out there who are much, much better in that area--he feels no contest in those fields, but he is willing to take anyone on in the arts and humanities. </p>

<p>So it is all right not to take every AP under the sun. But a lot of things go into the equation when you are talking about admissions to a top school. THere are those accepted without every AP possible, there are those rejected who have taken every AP possible.</p>

7

<p>Digi, I agree about the AP Euro, and it always seems to me that it is odd that the highschools tend to have that course before the AP History and Govt courses. Upon reflection, I think it should be a senior level course. My kids have all taken it as sophomores and usually take APUSH as juniors and AP govt as seniors. The European has generally been their lowest AP grades, and they all did well on the US courses.</p>

8

<p>How have you done in other math classes? My D was a solid mid to high A in all other math except geometry - A's but lower. But AB Calc was a breeze first semester. She hates math, BTW. Second semester, still with solid A's but much more difficult. As to the ivies, it's still acrap shoot - no matter what you do.</p>

9

<p>jamimom, it is hard to reconcile the fact that adcoms want student to take the hardest course and here you're saying in post #6, that it is all right not to take every AP under the sun. I'm very confused as a parent. At my d's high school, APUSH is taken as a sophomore not junior, AP Euro is for junior year.
By the way how much reading is required, my d plans to take AP Euro class in 11th grade, her father is from Europe so it's natural that she has an affinity to a class like that(col), I offered to let her op out but she insisted to take it. I'm a little worry!</p>

10

<p>Carolyn: I am considering taking AP Calculus AB. On the SATs I got a 740 on the math portion and a 730 on the verbal. Since my math score is relatively high on the SATs, would it look like I'm slacking if I don't take AP Calc, even if I don't really like math? I definitely think I could manage a B or above in AP. THANKS!</p>

<p>Jamimom: This year (Junior year) I have taken AP US History and AP English Literature. I just took the Math IC, US History, and Literature SAT IIs today, so I dont know the scores yet. THANKS!</p>

11

<p>also, would it look bad if I don't take a science course next year? my school only offers AP Chem (which i despise), AP Physics (which i despise),AP Human Geography, and AP Environmental.</p>

12

<p>Fire2006, I think you're going to have to decide how much you're willing to suffer to make it to an Ivy League college. Your scores are fine, and I expect your grades are fine, and you don't describe your ECs, which are probably what will distinguish you from other students. AP Human Geography is not a science (it's a division of social studies) and the AP Env Sci is a lame course; if you really want to hit the Ivy Leagues, you should take AP Chem or Physics AND AP Calc, since that's kind of the standard for the Ivy Leagues.</p>

<p>However, if your ECs are amazing (state or regional competitions, that kind of thing), and you've taken bio, chem, and physics already, you can probably get away with regular calculus and no science. If you take AP Lit or Composition, not honors English. </p>

<p>And I think you should consider taking 6 courses if your school allows it. If you like history and don't want to do the science, consider doing both AP Euro AND AP Government. (I like the Government course; I'm big on people understanding our constition.)</p>

13

<p>My kids go to a school where most kids take 4-6 AP exams on average. According to the college counselors who do track these things, it does not seem to make any difference whether you take 4 or more, and they have out and out stated this with stats to back them up in admissions decisions that they are willing to share with any parents who want to see this. I took a look myself, and have to agree. Unfortunately when you are talking about the most selective schools, most of the kids who got in were very much wanted by those schools for special talents and attributes and it seemed very clear that the number of APs was not going to be a sticking point in admissions. </p>

<p>When I lived in Westchester County, I had a friend whose D went to Scarsdale High School, and again, once you had 4 solid AP courses, it did not seem to matter as much as the grades you got. However, for those of my kids who went to Catholic schools, it seemed like everyone took APs junior and senior years, and if you did not take many of them, you were not going to look good against the rest of your class. So those kids took many APs. I will say that those schools did not seem to do so well in the AP test results whereas my S's prep school gets outstanding results even without official AP courses. So it really does depend on the situation and the school that the student is attending. Also certain "core" APs count more than others. Psychology, Human Geography, World History, Environmental Science are considered by many as AP lights. Though, my kids did take some of those as well. </p>

<p>Fire2006, I cannot emphasize enough that it so depends on the history and track record of your school. I will tell you that my son's college counselors were not happy with him with the 3 academics this year, and they really pushed for him to add Physics (he only had 2 out of the "Holy Trilogy" of physics, chem and bio), and/or a 4th year of foreign language, something he despised and his last grade in Spanish was a "C" junior year. She also would have like him to have added a government or history course and did not consider Art History in that category. I think for someone who wanted to be considered as a solid,excellent student, her advise was right on the spot, and most of the kids who were accepted to the top schools were tradiitonal in their approach and had 4 years of foreign language, the 3 major sciences, and 3 solid years of history and 4 years of math. But some of S's classmates did not take AP Calc and took some PreCalc2 or Stats or Uncalc, or Into to Calc math course with some unusual name instead of the calc that prepared you for the AP calc AB test. they seemed to fare as well as any--one accepted to Cornell, I know, another to Harvard, but they were very, very strong in their area of focus. In retrospect, I should not have insisted on the Calc course as it did develop into a thorn in our sides this year. However, he chose to take that Calc over a lighter math course and adding a science, foreign language or history course to his schedule. But it did not seem to be a problem for him that his academic course load was on the lighter side freshman year, and there were a number of other kids accepted to top schools who did the same thing. But again, I add, they did have very strong resumes in something specific and it was pretty clear that they were strongly pursuing their interests at a high level senior year. It did not look like they were taking breezers but were channeling into their passions. THey were also all very strong academically with some very concrete indicators such as very high test scores all around, or top grades, national awards, etc. I do not want anyone to take what I am saying out of context. You do have to procede with caution when you are going outside the recommended cores that the colleges post, and taking lighter course loads.</p>

14

<p>Adding to Jamimom's excellent post --- I do not think there is such a thing as a "perfect" curriculum that is going to work for every student at every college, especially when you are looking at more selective schools. As Jamimom points out, you do have to look at your curriculum in the context of the school, and ask how it compares to other similarly ranked students and the overall strength of the school. I also personally believe that if you have a weakness in one area, then it is wise to make sure all other areas are going to be as strong as possible. It is also wise to think about the level of colleges/universities you are likely to aim for -- as Dmd put it: if you're aiming high, you have to ask how much pain you're willing to bear.</p>

<p>Fire, if you're not going to take a 4th year of science, I personally would shoot for the AP Calculus, especially if I felt comfortable that I could do well in the course. I know you might not LIKE math, but you say you DESPISE the science options. Choose your poison, but I'd have one or the other, if not both, in my schedule if I were aiming at the Ivies. It won't guarantee you'll get in, just as not having it won't automatically disqualify you, but having it is another notch in your admissions package that you won't have to worry about.</p>

15

<p>i want to add that you don't have to toe the line so exactly on things like courses and APs. Though there are prescribed and suggested guidelines, they are not etched in stone. However, for most kids, staying close to them is wise. I have read posts from kids flaunting how they got into HPY and broke every rule in the book. That may or may not be true, and there also may be extenuating circumstances. If you have good reason to stray, it is one thing. Just not liking a subject or not feeling like taking it, is not. Though my S made those noises, he did have a valid and strong resume in the arts and it was pretty clear that he was very busy working on a strong senior project and many arts endeavors his senior year. He had had 10 AP exams, and top test scores. But he still did make his counselor nervous straying as far as he did, and I really wanted that other year of foreign language in there as well. Would serve him right him right if he should need it for college is my feeling about this--have not checked about that yet. </p>

<p>I also agree with Carolyin. advice on the Calc. It feels right to me.</p>

16

<p>I wonder, where will you learn the most math? If you are only going to take AP for a quarter to impress someone and then you plan to switch, how impressive do you think that is?</p>

<p>If you are only taking a particular course to impress the admissions office, why not interview this summer and ask them their opinion? </p>

<p>If you were to stay in the class for the year, what will really happen to your average, in some schools AP classes move C level work up to a B on report cards. Have you considered taking a math class in your community college this summer?</p>

<p>I wish you good luck in your college admission process, but also hope that somewhere along the line you will pick classes for the sake of learning the most you can about some mystery of life, be it calculus, astronomy or dance. So where will you learn the most math would be the question I would ask, not how can I play the system best.</p>

17

<p>jamimom, that order of euro --> us --> gov't seems almost backwards compared to my school! many students take gov't or us as sophomores [some take the other of the two in the freshman year], world as juniors, and euro as seniors. the trend still holds, however, where euro - the senior year class - gets the most number of 5's.</p>

<p>fire2006, as far as ap calculus...if you decide to go through with it, i found a very useful book [clear and crisp *intuitive *explanations] is Morris Kline's 'Calculus: An Intuitive and Physical Approach" - <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0486404536/qid=1117955726/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/002-8915438-3598444?v=glance&s=books&n=507846%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0486404536/qid=1117955726/sr=8-3/ref=pd_csp_3/002-8915438-3598444?v=glance&s=books&n=507846&lt;/a> .</p>

<p>i enjoyed ap euro VERY much. there is a large amount of material, and at least at my school, there was quite a bit of reading and note-taking to do at home. if the teacher is good though, it's entirely managable - problems that people had in the class were due more to not keeping up with the work [procrastination] than with the level of difficulty.</p>

18

<p>I agree with you, Karthikkito. I think that the Euro should be taken later. Just letting everyone know what my experience has been. I do not agree with that sequencing.</p>

19

<p>jamimom:</p>

<p>slighltly off point, but a govt class is a Calif HS grad requirement, and is a senior year course in most districts. Typical history sequencing on the left coast: world, AP US or 20th cent, Ap Euro or AP US, Govt/econ (econ also a grad requirement, so many top kids take AP)</p>

20

<p>On the question of sequencing AP Euro - in New York state, all students are required to take a two year 'global studies' course, usually 9th and 10th grades and must pass a Regents exam. Our district has all students take the first year of that course in 9th grade and then allows top students to take AP Euro in 10th grade (since it helps prep for the state Regents), taking the AP exam and Regents exam the end of 10 grade. It's the first AP taken and usually the only one kids in our district take in 10th. It makes me think there could well be similar reasons in other districts for choosing to place AP Euro ahead of AP USH. </p>

<p>To the OP - one question I would ask myself is, if I take the lighter load and am rejected by my top choices, will I regret it? I like to believe things turn out the way they should - if you take the harder courses and don't do well, maybe you wouldn't enjoy the academic experience at the very competitive schools. (I'm putting my helmet on now, can see lots of wads of paper and some sharp things being thrown my way).</p>