<p>annasdad, I see you have had three times as many number of posts than me. All done since May of last year. Other than that one should not pay for name brand schools, what else do you passionally aruge here? </p>
<p>This topic has been on CC ever since, I would like to guess, CC first came on line. I would say, you have more people who try to justify why they don’t send their kids to elite U (some were not even admitted). </p>
<p>I guess what I am trying to say is that you will not see many studies confirming elite U offer a better education. It is like no one is publishing any paper on proving water is wet.</p>
<p>Expect for a few need-blind/no-loan schools and many middle class or poorer families. A kid from such a family at such a school would finish her school even if her parents became homeless.</p>
<p>Dad II, if you want to see what else I’ve posted about, review my posting history. </p>
<p>As far as no studies being done, there have been a number of studies done looking for correlations between student selectivity ancient other prestige-related factors, on the one hand, and educational results, on the other. None of those studies have been able to detect statistically significant correlations. There ARE factors that show positive correlations, but unfortunately, they’re not the factors about which data is readily available to the public. Many of these factors closely map questions asked on the NSSE, but the high-prestige schools almost universally refuse either to participate in NSSE or to release their results. (Wonder why?)</p>
<p>Bless you, Dad II, for trying to reason with those who are unreasonable. No one has disputed that the students with the chops to succeed academically at top schools will “succeed” and get the best education they can at a middling school. But will they have the exposure, as you point out, to top faculty who have written the books on many subjects, the top scholars in the field, be in class with a large number of like-minded and intellectually curious/intellectually endowed, intellectually stimulating students, have a career placement office that will help them land the best opportunities in their field? No one needs to answer that. And if they do, they will likely get the same argument with the same tired study from 7 years ago, ignoring the refuted studies that have been posted showing the effects of peer influence, the amount of money spent per student at the top vs the other schools,etc, and it’s pretty clear to those without blinders on what the answer is.</p>
<p>Maybe the answer, for all the other posters, presenting it in the form of an analogy, is to stop trying to get in the ring with a kangaroo wearing boxing gloves and instead let the kangaroo shadow box.</p>
<p>“But part of rational decision-making is gathering data. And the data shows, overwhelmingly, that there is no educational advantage to a high-prestige or highly selective school.”</p>
<p>You can use whatever selective data you find, and it is unlikely that people will believe what does not make sense. Colleges that have overcrowded classrooms, poorly motivated and performing students, overworked and less qualified teachers will never be able to compete with classrooms full of top students, the best professors and plenty of funds. Sure, a hardworking, motivated student may excel, but generally those kinds of students want to be with others who share their motivation, and would be bored crazy by the average assignments.</p>
<p>Do you also have data that says there is no educational advantage by going to the most challenging, highly selective private high schools out there as opposed to the worst, most crowded, lack of resource, gang filled public high schools? Don’t know anyone who would buy that, no matter the source.</p>
<p>The data is a compilation of multiple studies done over 30 years. I’ve asked repeatedly whether anyone can cite any on-point, contrary data - and been met only with silence, straw men, and ad hominem answers. What’s selective about that? </p>
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<p>Critical thinkers are always open to redefining what “makes sense” in the light of new knowledge and insights. The earth revolving around the sun didn’t make sense in the sixteenth century. Relativity didn’t make sense in the twentieth. </p>
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<p>My point exactly. Thank you. </p>
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<p>There are such students everywhere, and there are opportunities at almost any college to seek out challenging courses and intellectually stimulating activities. And there are opportunities at almost any college, even the most selective, to slide through without learning much. Read Derescewicz on Yale, for example. And there is data (sorry) that in terms of students seeking out challenge, there is much more variation within colleges than between colleges. </p>
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<p>None whatsoever. So what? You’re not trying to raise another straw man, I hope?</p>
<p>I don’t have published evidence. I can say from my years of experience at work (public high school) that students who go to schools where they are much higher than the average student (not some higher, but much higher) tend to come back talking about being bored and not liking their college experience. I can’t think of any who have what I would call a “wow” job. Some don’t exactly have good jobs, but I don’t know if the stats are different from “average.”</p>
<p>Students who go to schools where they are a bit under the average student tend to come home soon (not as many of these as those tend to not be accepted).</p>
<p>Students who go to schools with lower graduation rates and freshmen retention rates (a better indicator than grad rates) tend to come home.</p>
<p>Students who tend to go to “lesser” schools tend to not have “wow” jobs.</p>
<p>Those who have the ability, choose a mid level college or so (we seldom get any into high colleges, but those few too), and choose a marketable major tend to do well.</p>
<p>Many who head off come back… some due to academics, some due to being hit by cupid → academics, some due to too much partying…</p>
<p>Many who start at community college don’t continue (if they finish). More don’t finish than do from my limited sample.</p>
<p>The bottom line? For my own kids I try to get a great match. For us, this means trying for the best school we can afford that has their desired major and a decent track record of graduates doing what mine want to be doing (or think they want to be doing). I don’t feel any school is worth 6 digit loans (ours or theirs). There are always other options. Full pay without needing loans? Go where you like, but I’d choose “better” over “lower” as long as it fit my kid.</p>
<p>Several “low” schools are off our list due to mine having higher stats. We wouldn’t choose them if they were free (some could have been). I have no regrets.</p>
<p>annasdad, are you a religious guy? Do you go to church on Sundays? Say your prayers at night? If so, I’m assuming it’s because there’s a study somewhere with data proving that God exists. Please direct me to it because it would set my mind at ease to know that there’s a citation somewhere…</p>
<p>This has been my experience and that of many others I know, too. When I am hiring I am far more concerned about relevant experience than I am about where someone went to college.</p>
<p>Just curious, all things being equal (similar grades, some work experience, an internship somewhere, no striking issue surfaced on interview, etc) would the school they attended make a difference? Would a 3.7 from Wazoo State parallel a 3.7 from, say, Cornell?</p>
<p>When my older son was a senior in college (engineering major at UVA), he was flown out to California for a multi-day interview with a prestigious international firm. There were seven kids from other colleges from all over the country at the same three-day session, including an engineering student from WVU. So for what it’s worth a student from UVA and WVU both made it as far as second round interviews and were going head to head for the exact same job. S1 did not get an offer for that position, but said he was highly impressed with the WVU student and thought management liked that student a lot. </p>
<p>I realize engineering is its own little universe, but I fully expect my rising senior engineering student from WVU to have career prospects that are as good as those of his UVA graduate brother. S1 works overseas in consulting and loves his job, which he got as a result of his internship with them the previous year. S2 is getting substantive experience at his internship this summer and may end up working for that company at graduation. I would agree that work experience is key.</p>
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Do you also have data that says there is no educational advantage by going to the most challenging, highly selective private high schools out there as opposed to the worst, most crowded, lack of resource, gang filled public high schools?
None whatsoever. So what? You’re not trying to raise another straw man, I hope?"</p>
<p>So, you had or have zero a priori reason to believe that the better caliber equipment, teachers and student body at IMSA were better than your local high school. Yet you leaned into the wind anyway and sent your D there, at effort and expense to the family. But, you firmly agree that as a sharp, motivated young lady, she would have been fine at the public hs. Right?</p>
<p>Many times this and other supporting data about the amount spent per student at top vs lower schools has been provided. Its been posted by me, barrons, thumper, and others. It gets ignored, and the shadow-boxing continues.</p>