Today's NYTimes editorial "The Class of 2012"

Parents Forum
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<p>My dear, just because I only pointed you to one study doesn’t mean only one study exists. </p>

<p>Here’s another one, that looked at the differences in performance between children offered a private school scholarship who accepted and didn’t accept the scholarship:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.plan.givewell.org/files/Round2Apps/Cause4/Childrens%20Scholarship%20Fund/B/originalhowellpetersonmathstudy.pdf[/url]”>http://www.plan.givewell.org/files/Round2Apps/Cause4/Childrens%20Scholarship%20Fund/B/originalhowellpetersonmathstudy.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Or this one analyzing Boston and New York “exam schools”:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.duke.edu/~aa88/articles/ExamSchools-w17264.pdf[/url]”>http://www.duke.edu/~aa88/articles/ExamSchools-w17264.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/education/02charters.html?pagewanted=all[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/education/02charters.html?pagewanted=all&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Here’s a nice quote from the Cullen/Jacob/Levitt paper:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://closup.umich.edu/michigan-charter-school-research-project/Jacob_Chicago_Lotteries_Elementary.pdf[/url]”>http://closup.umich.edu/michigan-charter-school-research-project/Jacob_Chicago_Lotteries_Elementary.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>There are, BTW, exceptions to these results. The studies do show that children from minority groups in extremely underperforming schools do show benefit from moving up to better schools. So the current available best evidence suggests that there is a threshold of quality that students need to achieve (at least minority students), but that once that threshold is crossed moving up to more elite schools does not have a significant impact.</p>

<p>I provide this information with no hope that facts or research will influence your already-formed opinion, but rather for others who may read this thread.</p>

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<p>Sort of sounds like getting drafted. For the record, busdriver1 does not speak for me.</p>

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<p>Believe me, bro, I feel your pain.</p>

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<p>BobWallace,
I hesitate to get back into the discussion on this thread, given the tone it has taken, but I do find some of your references interesting. It looks like the Levitt articles are about the study I was remembering and referencing in post #104. My recollection, which is rusty, from discussions about the Chicago school study, was that there were other issues that were considered to have affected the students who went from the inner city to the suburban schools. Problems with social adjustment, distance travelled to/from the schools, etc may have been contributory variables to lessen the success they hoped to see. </p>

<p>Also, they have no outcome studies to see if there was any difference in college attendance, vocational success, etc. which would be interesting to know.</p>

<p>Lastly, there is a difference between HS studies and college studies, as, for example, the latter is a self-selected group of individuals who choose to pursue higher education. This could possibly effect the social and transportation variables, as well as others.</p>

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<p>Here ya go:</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dobbie/research/ExamSchools_July2011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dobbie/research/ExamSchools_July2011.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Not sure what they mean by being eligible vs attending one of the
exam schools, though it may make sense that students who qualified for but didnt attend the stronger (exam) schools may not have as positive an outcome (college graduation rate) as those who did. From what I have seen, many of the students who use vouchers or lottery (or what have you) to attend a school out of their district may fail to graduate HS, often affected by some of the issues mentioned above (social/emotional, transportation, etc) so de facto wouldnt graduate from a 4 year college. Your article (thanks for finding a more current reference, BTW) points out that :

So as I believe we both mentioned earlier, it may be better to be the top of the middle than the middle of the top, so as to have a stronger GPA , class rank and be more competitive for scholarships and admissions.</p>

<p>Are there studies to show any similarities or differences in how well prepared the students from the local district vs voucher schools were? Did the kids from the local , presumably “worse” HS’s have to take more remedial classes? Wonder how their college GPAs are, compared to students from more academically rigorous (for lack of a better word) HSs. These are all outcome variables that would be interesting to see.</p>

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<p>“Sort of sounds like getting drafted. For the record, busdriver1 does not speak for me”</p>

<p>Actually, annasdad, if I am correct that you are a parent who has sent your child to a top magnet school over the local public school, in this regard I believe that I do speak for you.</p>

<p>And Bob, while my self acclaimed pronouncement of speaking for all the parents that read this thread was obviously a mockery, since you have declared that you send your children to private schools over the local public schools…why I believe I speak for you too. Feel free to cite as many studies as you like, but actions certainly do speak louder then words. Unless, of course, you have paid for them to attend private school for religious reasons, or your kids were getting hassled in the public school, or some other reason that does not relate to education.</p>

<p>Now perhaps you think the Iowa Test of Basic Skills is an important indicator of how well one is educated, and is the measuring stick of what is a fine education. I do not. I’d guess that my kids would probably do the same on a standardized test regardless of where they went to high school. I haven’t sent my kids to the schools I did so they could perform higher on a standardized test, that was irrelevant to me. In fact, they probably would have done better on those tests going to a public school, where their funding and very existence is based upon how those kids do, so they teach to the test. Their private school never even bothered to give them standardized testing in high school, why would they bother? I sent my kids to the schools that would give them the best personalized education possible, in a small class setting where higher level thinking was encouraged. I believe that you are highly influenced by your peers, and when your schoolmates are mostly brainiacs, and that is respected by your classmates and teachers, you will strive to attain their level of achievement and learn more than you would have otherwise. </p>

<p>You may not believe that peers have any influence, but I certainly do. Would my kids have done great at standardized testing in a class of 40, where the teacher is busy dealing with troublemakers and has no incentive or energy to work with the more scholastically inclined kids? Would they have risen to the top if their peers were mocking them for being smart, getting high grades, or speaking up in class? Maybe. It’s possible they would have had high standardized test scores, or been at the top of the class. But to me, that is completely unimportant, and is not indicative of a quality education. I would rather them be in the bottom half of the top 5%, with desire to learn and ambition, than in the top 1% of the low or average achievers. Don’t have a study to prove it, it’s merely what is important to me.</p>

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<p>I am, by the way, not putting down public schools in any way. There are some absolutely amazing public schools, and some ones with very high achieving students getting a top quality education. Particularly in my local area. I am merely using polar opposite examples to dispute the assertion that where you go to high school does not matter one bit for educational purposes.</p>

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<p>The quoted studies cover a vast range of measures, standardized testing merely being one of a large set. There are also 2 general classes of standardized tests - aptitude and achievement. The SAT is largely an aptitude test, whereas AP tests and SAT subject tests are largely achievement tests. Preparation is more important than raw ability in determining performance on achievement tests, whereas the opposite is true for aptitude tests. ITBS aspires to be an achievement test, and that’s why it is used as a measure of school performance. But even if we throw out this one measure you say is meaningless, we still have all he others supporting the same conclusion.</p>

<p>You are being very defensive for all the wrong reasons. No one, least of all me, has suggested that you shouldn’t send your kids to private school.</p>

<p>The only reason this conversation is happening is the gauntlet you laid down:

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<p>Well, the data has been presented and you simply refuse to accept it. No big deal, it’s a free country, you are allowed to have opinions that are totally unsupported if you so choose.</p>

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<p>I don’t want you to have the impression that I am defensive. I am not at all, I am very pleased with the decisions we have made scholastically for our kids. They were extremely fortunate to get into the schools they have. I couldn’t have possibly imagined a better result, though it would have been nice to have a bigger bank account. I just couldn’t imagine that you can actually dispute something as common sense as my statement of, “Do you also have data that says there is no educational advantage by going to the most challenging, highly selective private high schools out there as opposed to the worst, most crowded, lack of resource, gang filled public high schools?”</p>

<p>Now I suppose I worded that poorly. Perhaps I should have been more specific, not talking about data, because yes, I can be quoted data all day but when it runs contrary to personal experience and basic reason, I will question the data. Particularly because I believe that it is very difficult to measure the true scholastic benefit for every child based on any numerical study. Education is extremely individualized, and as parents we can only do what we think is best for our children within the confines of our location and income.</p>

<p>So why do you send your children to private schools? Do you really think they are not getting any educational benefit by doing so?</p>

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<p>Three American teens, Poor Paul, Middle Class Mike, and Richie Rich, are learning to drive and learning to play golf. </p>

<p>Richie Rich has his own brand new Mercedes. He is allowed to practice driving whenever he likes. His car is very reliable, comfortable, and powerful. Richie also belongs to a country club with a beautiful golf course designed by Jack Nicklaus. He can go there and play golf almost any time he wants, has no trouble getting tee times, has a very fancy set of clubs, and gets to ride in a golf cart whenever he plays. There’s a golf pro who gives Richie tips on his swing and loans him extra equipment when he needs it. Richie’s parents pay a lot of money for his car and club membership.</p>

<p>Middle Class Mike doesn’t have a car, but he is allowed to use the family’s old VW when no one else needs it. The VW leaks oil, smells a little funny, and breaks down sometimes. When Mike wants to play golf, he has to go to the local public golf course. He can’t always get a tee time, he uses his brother’s beat up old clubs, and he has to carry the clubs around he course on foot. Mike doesnt have a golf pro for advice, but he uses online tutorials and books from the library to improve his swing. Mike’s parents give him a small allowance, but he has to work a part time job to pay for luxuries like green fees and gas.</p>

<p>Poor Paul lives in a shattered public housing project. He doesn’t have a car, and neither does anyone in his single-parent family. Paul can every now and then borrow a neighbor’ car to practice driving, but even when he’s allowed to use it, it won’t always start and he has very little money for gas. Paul has no access to a golf course at all. He has an old 5 iron he found in a junk pile and he takes it into an abandoned brownfield behind the project and practices golf by hitting rocks, pine cones, and other vaguely golf ball shaped items. Sometimes there are gunshots and fights outside and Paul doesn’t go out to practice golf or drive at all.</p>

<p>So, who ends up the best driver and the best golfer? I would contend that there is very little chance Paul will get proficient at either one - the resources available to him are simply insufficient to allow necessary skills to develop. However, when it comes to Richie and Mike, it’s not so clear who will come out on top. Richie has advantages to be sure, but they are not decisive advantages. Between Mike and Richie, it’s more likely that natural ability and practice will determine who becomes the better golfer and/or driver. Mike has the basic materials for success available to him, even if they aren’t as attractive as Richie’s. There’s no reason to fault Richie’s parents for giving him high quality resources, the best they can afford, but his parents are fooling themselves if they think they’ve bought him success. Richie will very likely have a more pleasant time learning to drive in his Mercedes and learning to play golf at his country club, but there will still be challenges and bumps in the road.</p>

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<p>The fact Richie doesn’t have to wait in line to play golf or get stranded because his car breaks down sometimes, maybe he could spend some of his valuable time to cure cancer, and that would make a big difference on his college application.</p>

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<p>Okay, I see your pretend example. I’ll give you a real example. My family was somewhere between Poor Paul and Middle Class Mike. My education was pretty crummy. Large classes, teachers didn’t notice nor care if you were there, they never even knew my name. I hid in the back of the class, never spoke up. Never did homework, studied for a test. Slept through so many years of school. But due to inheriting pretty good genes, a love for reading, and stubborn persistence, I worked my way into a high paying job, along with my husband doing the same. I will make enough money in my life, live well, but I will never make a significant dent in this world beyond my immediate family and friends.</p>

<p>Now my kids are somewhere between Middle Class Mike and Richie Rich, leaning towards Richie. They have gone to some of the best schools in the US, for most of their young lives. They were smarter in fourth grade than I was in college. They don’t put a premium on wealth, though they have pretty much whatever they want. We don’t put much value on possessions, so I suspect neither do they, but they realize their family is doing fine. Their education has been a decisive advantage for them, and though I have no idea how financially successful they will be (I suspect they will do quite well), I am dead certain that they will impact the world around them far more than we ever will.</p>

<p>The difference? Sleeping through 13 years of lower school (and mostly through my bachelors) as opposed to my children having an education that engaged their mind for the vast part of every single day.</p>

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<p>No, busdriver, you don’t speak for me when you ignore data and research and instead rely on anecdote and specious argument, as you have done throughout this discussion.</p>

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<p>Looking back at justdafacts post #81, he/she pointed out that the results of that old study being constantly referenced showed: " A study of more than 200 four-year institutions, after controlling for precollege variables and in-college experiences (such as major, interaction with faculty and peers, social and academic engagement), then assessing performance on tests including GRE, MCAT, LSAT, National Teachers’ Exam, found “Institutional selectivity … had trivial and statistically nonsignificant effects on the quantitative score.” These results are consistent with studies assessing performance on more broad-based tests such as the College Basic Academic Subjects exam". If the dependent measure is standardized test scores, well so what? Again- where are the outcome studies (for college students, not HS students) looking at the future of these students?</p>

<p>OK- back to your regularly scheduled bickering.</p>

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<p>BobWallace - totally dug your clever little example and agree 100% with it. The difference between Mike and Richie and how it impacts their future success might depend more on choices - they both have everything they need - but who has the desire to go after it and work for it.</p>

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<p>Busdriver11 post #132 gives an excellent data point that shows, to me, where one goes to school is not very important at all.</p>

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<p>But thats just one anecdotal example, lake42. We know we can’t rely on anecdotal examples ;)</p>

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<p>That is true, you certainly can’t rely on anecdotal examples, you must rely on data and research. Then again, it still begs the question of why those who claim that the data is what is important, personally choose to send their children to schools other than their local public schools. </p>

<p>Perhaps it could be because data and research is important for other people, but when it comes to one’s own kids, people throw that out the window and try to find the best possible situation for their own children? And sometimes it is the local school, often it is not.</p>

<p>And for people that think it’s just fine to sleep through class through one’s childhood years, and have all your learning outside of the classroom, purely because you might still end up in the same point numerically in your life—why bother to send the child to school at all?</p>

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<p>Continue to ignore the data you can’t refute - you’re in excellent company here. And your anecdotal data with regard to me is off base - I’ve never cited any data about high schools, only about colleges. So you’re not only resorting to a fallacious tu quoque argument, you’re throwing in a straw man as well.</p>

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<p>Can I rent my daughter out for any studies? She turned down a full scholarship to a small selective private non-denominational high school to attend the large local (very good) public school. She needs a source of summer income. ;)</p>