@CaMom13 Regarding your question about Texas State, I can only speak as to why my son chose it over some other “top tier” programs like BW, CCM, and Point Park. Like so many have said, it is so important for your child to know what THEY most want in a program vs. what others may be looking for, because all of these schools ARE excellent in different ways and have different curricula, teaching styles and a different overall “feel” to them.
For my son, a true triple threat program with strong dance, strong industry connections, smaller class size in a conservatory style program were his essentials. His list of criteria took more heavily academic and excellent programs like U of Mich, Penn State, Elon, Pace, and NYU off of his application list. He did end up auditioning for CMU and got waitlisted and then was offered to move to PH, but declined because by then he had found his fit at TX State. The TXSTMT program is 5 years young and DOES do a great with social media ;), but it truly is producing a wide range of well-rounded, multi-talented young people on and off Broadway. The industry current and innovative curriculum, faculty, students, and setting were all key factors in why it felt right for my son’s training ground, and he continues to believe he made the perfect choice to suit his goals.
All this said, I agree with what many other posters have said. There is no perfect top 10, 20 or probably 30 list. Most of the schools we see move up and down these lists are very good and competitive for a reason, but they are certainly not all places where each young person will thrive. Visit the programs where you get offers that really interest your son/daughter. Ask that your child sit in on and participate in dance classes, spend time with the students in the program, and ask ALL of your questions. Ultimately, trust that your child will feel a connection to the right program for them.
Here’s a question that I have about all of this. My child is considering applying to MT programs this year, so I have been following all of these threads and found them so helpful. We have some friends who have kids in some different MT programs and they have given some “insider” perspective as well.
And I don’t mean to offend anyone by asking this…
Just that, it seems like a rigged game from the outset. For example, when I look at websites for audition coaches, there seems to be a very friendly (overfriendly?) relationship between the heads of some “top” programs and the coaching services. They have their photos plastered on the promotional material, hold private auditions (e.g. moonifieds), and very heavily self-promote their programs online. In fact, in compiling a list of top programs, I wonder how much the kids are influenced by a department’s social media, advertising, and connection with these private services/camps/clubs.
A friend who is at UMich told us that a sizeable proportion of kids who get accepted at Michigan have done their (incredibly expensive) summer program. And I would think that is the same for a lot of other schools that run “summer intensives” for profit.
It just is discouraging, knowing that it is a lottery from the outset; but that it doesn’t seem to be a level playing field for those who can’t afford the cost to get the inside track. I know it comes down to talent, but all things being equal, I feel like we are already at a big disadvantage.
And then wondering how many kids who complete an MT BFA, actually do find sustainable work in the field, and how many are marginally employed at the end of a very expensive degree, especially if not from a “top ten” program.
OK, not to sound too depressed. Just needed a parent vent.
@DemonBarber My S is going to Michigan’s MPULSE this summer. Are we sending him because we think it will help him get into Michigan? Absolutely not. I want him to have the opportunity to learn from a top notch faculty for 3 weeks before he goes into auditions. Will they pay a bit more attention to him because he was in MPULSE? Probably. But bottom line they will offer the kids based on talent and what they are looking for that particular year. If the previous year the program enrolled someone who looks and sounds similar to my S, then my S is likely out of luck no matter his talent. The people who run these programs are too professional and too picky to let summer program attendance influence their decision making.
As far as an audition coach, their job is to prepare my S for auditions so that if a program is looking for my S’s “type”, my S has the best shot at being offered. An audition coach should have a good idea which programs are looking for someone like my son. Hopefully the coach will help in having the program be aware of my S prior to the audition. Will that awareness help in getting him an offer? Only if he has the talent and is the “type” they are looking for anyway.
I want the summer program and the coach to help him be the best he can be during the auditions. That is all I am expecting, and that is enough.
@DemonBarber don’t rule out the fact that just like everything else in the world, the parents who can get their kids into expensive coaches have also likely been paying for expensive, dance, voice, and acting lessons forever. So it may not be that these coaches are excellent, it’s just that the pool of kids that can afford them are excellent.
I’m sure that coaches probably do add some benefit… but I doubt that it is because they are friends with the director of the school. They may tailor auditions towards those people, but the kids still have to perform.
@TexasMTDad I chose to sign my S up with Moo because of her reputation and because it made financial sense. For us, Moonifieds is a great deal because it is within driving distance so no cost of flying. In addition, two schools at Moonifieds are at the top of my S’s list but only have on campus auditions otherwise. Moonifieds saved a lot of travel expense to those campuses. When you subtract those costs from the cost of Moo’s audition coaching, I consider it an absolute bargain.
@DemonBarber I understand the concern you have. However, please know that lots and lots of applicants are admitted to BFA in MT programs who did not work with a coach who connected the students with MT faculty in workshops, mock auditions, or private auditions. The majority of students admitted did not attend a summer program associated with the college they were admitted to (though a summer intensive is a good idea for training and immersion purposes).
My own daughter never met or was never in front of any of the college reps before her actual audition for admissions. None had heard of her. She did not have a national coach or mock auditions or private auditions. She did, however, have training locally to prepare for auditions. She never attended a summer program associated with a college. She did go to a summer theater program for 8 summers, that is not at a college and has no faculty from any of the colleges. She had a very positive BFA admissions outcome, as did many friends she has from around the country who could have said the same that I just wrote about my kid.
Training is important. But it is not essential to have connected with the adjudicators prior to the real audition, to have a chance of admissions. The majority have not.
In terms of finding professional work in the field after college…well, it is definitely challenging and not guaranteed. You can’t assess the success based on what happens the first few years out of the gate. As well, your child is getting a college education and this should be beneficial in finding work generally speaking, whether on stage, or something else arts related, or even unrelated. It takes a lot of drive and motivation. Not everyone perseveres. Some eventually change their minds about pursuing it after a while. I know plenty of my D’s peers have been successful in this field professionally and some have gone onto other things, which is fine too. My own D has supported herself since her graduation from college at age 20 entirely in theater and music. But if she had gone a different way, that would have been fine too.
I’m not at all offended but I do think the word “rigged” is inaccurate.
I can understand where you are coming from but I wonder if you change your perspective if it would look different. Think about whatever it is that you do. How important are the people you know, they people they know, and the impressions you’ve left on those people to your current situation?
Relationships help or hurt everyone in every industry. They will most certainly help these kids when they graduate too! (Just ask anyone that graduated from Michigan if it’s an advantage!) MT is like every other industry… the more people you know and the more people they know, the bigger impact it has on your ability to move up. But it is still up to each individual to leave a positive impression.
Summer programs can go both ways; the kids may or may not like the faculty and the faculty may or may not like the kids. Both parties can be hurt or helped but that arrangement. For the auditions it can help, but it can also hurt in the audition room if you do a summer program. If they had 3 weeks to get to know you and you made a good impression but you have a bad audition, it could help. But if you had a bad 3 weeks and you slay the audition, they could not give you an offer, where they might have if they didn’t know you.
. Ultimately your kid has to be prepared to bring their best self to the audition. To show who they are and what they are capable of. And if they have left a good impression on someone that they auditioner knows, good for them! Isn’t that the way it works for us when we walk into a job interview too? It’s no more rigged than kids that get into college for sports that have trained for a decade or more and done summer camps and gotten their names out to agents and recruiters.
I don’t see it as a system that’s “rigged”. I see it as a system that is so extremely competitive that it requires extensive training, preparation, and where leaving a good impression on others can help.
@DemonBarber I want to second @soozievt 's encouragement. My S did not have a national coach, did not do the college-affiliated summer programs (in fact only did 2 summer intensives locally and before that went to plain-old-sleepaway camp), did all of his theatre training in an education program at our regional theatre, along with some school theatre, has a local voice teacher, and got his monologue and song coaching from these excellent, local people. He had a great result and will be attending his dream school in the fall --a place where he’d never met anyone before audition day and had no connections. It can be done!
Michigan mama here and there are a few others online available to pm. @demonbarber - I like your name!!
I agree with some of the above but not all of it. Yes, a coaching service can provide access and maybe that is what some are paying for. For example, MTCA provides a BW audition in the city which gives you access you may not have if you unable to fly out Berea. Moonifieds does the same thing on a bigger scale by allowing her Moo crew to audition for a lot of schools all at once and earlier. Those are nice options to have and you pay for them.
But what I found more valuable and what most people get from a coaching service is professional guidance on monologues, song selection, vocal cuts that someone’s voice teacher or high school drama teacher might not be able to provide.
People have likened it to regular students taking SAT prep. Is it fair? In many ways no, because obviously you must have money to pay for these services. However, I have stated before, MTCA was affordable for our family because it is ala carte so you can use it just for the areas you need help with. Also kudos to Ellen Lettrich, founder of MTCA who is now running a College Audition Fund, a non-profit to help provide funds and coaching services to low income students so that they can audition for MT and not be shut out.
In my daughter’s class at Michigan, there are kids who used MTCA or Moo, but there are also kids who used no coaching service.
I also wanted to say that attending MPulse or CMU summer program or whatever one you think will most enrich your child can be great but don’t think it is a stepping stone to gaining acceptance. It will be an amazing summer experience that your child will grow from, but very few will gain acceptance (if any). Interestingly, in my daughter’s class, several MT’s weren’t even accepted to MPulse but were accepted to the MT program - so go figure! @AmarilloTX bottom line - it’s talent and teachability and intelligence and a certain je ne sais quoi. Don’t agree with the old trope if they have another dark haired tenor or blonde soprano than mine is out. I have seen many repeat types - but you do need to be uniquely you.
Best of luck to everyone - but if you are a low income family reading these threads, look into the Fund for College Auditions. Let’s level the playing field and diversify this field.
I completely agree with @singoutlouise that coaching on audition material is very beneficial and I recommend that to all students. National coaches are great or if you can find local coaches who are familiar with BFA auditions, that’s good too. What I was saying earlier is that it is not imperative to have ever met with auditors prior to your real admissions audition. Many, many have not. As to summer programs, I think these are also very beneficial and I recommend them if it is possible to do them. Like I said, my own kid went to a theater camp for 6 weeks for 8 summers. What I was trying to say is that there is no need to have attended the summer program affiliated with the college you want to go to. It is not necessarily a leg up. But the training itself…is a positive thing.
So, I DO recommend getting help on audition prep and I do recommend summer theater programs of some type if you can do it. I’d say the same thing about SAT prep! My earlier post was addressing whether you need to have contact with auditors before your real audition day. I’m sure it is a positive thing, but just saying a huge number of successful applicants have never met the auditors before auditioning for real.
I have to say, I’m extremely shocked Oklahoma City is so low on so many of these lists! From visiting and auditioning and research - I thought it was one of the most top notch schools we had seen or visited… am I wrong to think that? Please give me some insight if there is something I’m missing
I will tell you that the kids I worked with had me (NOT a national coach, only work on a volunteer basis with kids I have directed in shows for years). They did sign on with a package with CAP but it was a smaller package so they could get access to CAP Atlanta auditions. That being said, the coaches there were wonderful, but didn’t change much about what they already had. They did do, upon my recommendation, a college mock audition in the Dallas area in August. I would recommend that for ANYone. They got real feedback from college music directors they hoped to audition in front of later in the season. That has resulted (so far) in several acceptances from that mock audition (after they gave feedback then saw them at several more auditions listening and responding to the feedback given). I don’t believe it is rigged but here’s what I do think. Both of my kids this year took a gap year and they worked on their audition cuts and took a private (duet actually) dance lesson for about 12 weeks in the fall. I worked with each of them about 3 hours a week and they worked on their own MUCH more than that. We cut and recut and recut again until we found the perfect songs and monologues for them. If they had not taken a gap year, neither of them would have been able to put that much time into their auditions. Both were GT and honors students and loaded up with AP classes. Both had multiple extracurriculars. The young man has more than almost more extracurriculars than any kid I have seen. Many of them leadership, non-theatre roles. There simply is no way he could have devoted the time and energy to really honing his audition pieces while taking 5 AP classes. Now, did all his auditions go perfectly? Nope! Sadly, some of the ones he cared most about, he ended up being too exhausted or worrying about so much that he flubbed them. (One, in particular, he told me he stuttered through his monologue. This kid has never stuttered that I have heard – ever?? Never gets nervous, usually adrenaline-charged for performances…but last day of Unifieds, sick and exhausted.) So rigged? No…but I do believe that the more time you invest and work on your audition, the better your chances. And that having someone help you to understand how to package yourself also helps a lot. That was some of the best feedback given to them at the mock audition. It made them both go back and re-evaluate who they were as performers and how to bring their strengths to the audition. Since auditions are passed, I will comment this. The young man picked a difficult song for one of his – “Dust and Ashes” from “Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812.” It violates every rule that you hear about auditions – not the right age range (although it is a little more “open” than some roles), the piano is ridiculously hard and recently on Broadway. He had trouble with some accompanists playing it. At least two stopped a few measures in and he had to sing a cappella the rest of the way. But that is a song that I knew belonged to him (okay, and Josh Groban). And, he got so much positive feedback about it – even with the questionable accompanist. Only ONE accompanist played it correctly and even with FEELING and he did get an acceptance there. But taking a risk on that song was a real risk. A lot of rules broken. But he knew that it was a very good song to show who he was as a performer and it ended up paying off. I rambled too much here…but I hope that helps
@AmarilloTX oh, I get it. It definitely makes sense for some people… I was just pointing out that correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
There is also a possibility that some coaches are selecting their students. My son went through this process last year. He was at Thespian Convention and a coach offered to help him (not a full package) for free. He figured my son would get into some decent programs so I think he wanted to be able to use those acceptances on his brochures as proof of his competence. I doubt Moo or any of the big ones need to do that at this point, but I’m sure there are still some trying to burn into the market.
@onette - it is so funny that you mention the rule breaking and HARD song. My kid did the same thing but it was a super last minute change. After the first 4 auditions of the season my kid just felt like the ballad chosen initially was too much like what everyone else was signing. At the last minute before the 5th audition, decided that any school that did not have a pianist would get the hard song using a recording. After several very successful feeling auditions, decided to throw it in with a pianist but had a back up option in case the pianist would not play it and ended up with more success than we ever expected. Only one pianist flubbed completely and one played it so well it was almost unrecognizable and fancy that kind of threw my kid. Not something I would necessarily recommend but my kid decided it was either that and go down in flames feeling true to themselves and have some success with those schools that might appreciate the difficulty and beauty of the song and ability to execute it but just could not face singing the original ballad.
@Ontheverge I wonder if it was the same school? When I looked up who the accompanist was, I was shocked. It wasn’t just an accompanist! So, I did mention to him that yup…I can see why he “played it with feeling.” And he was the only accompanist who seemed to readily know both songs he sang. I know there are standard rules regarding “No Jason Robert Brown, No Sondheim, etc.” mainly because the accompaniment is SO hard. Often changes key, tempo, time signature, etc. And it is hard to do without rehearsing first. Also generally avoid anything that says “freely” on it…LOL. Most of these kids have never “led” their accompanist. And they are used to following the music. Completely different ball game. SOOOOO, I got a friend of mine to come down from Denton (UNT Music School) and do a trial run for these kids – sheet music sight unseen. He has a Ph.D. in piano so maybe I should have aimed a little lower because he effortlessly played all their music. Which did NOT happen at auditions. I think the worst one was at NTDA. The accompanist played the first four measures, then stopped. The poor kid went all the way through a cappella. He was upset with me, initially, for letting him do that song. But he got 34 callbacks that night. And that song was why. A LOT of schools told him how impressed they were that he kept going and was in key and acted incredibly professionally. One of my friends, who is theatre director at a local community college with no MT, told me he was one of many students that had happened to during the day and that it was painful to watch. But most let it affect their audition and he kept on going and never missed a beat. Good things to make note of!
@onette - We are still waiting on results from the two schools that had issues. One person just played cords. My kid kept going and then the second one they just had some issues finding the first note because of the very “fancy” beginning of the cut that others played very simply, not what was expected - I thought the whole thing sounded fantastic from what I could hear outside the door, but a momentarily confused face may have slipped in. I think my kid was just ready to go all in at that point. As a spectator, I was terrified but not my decision and I was happy to see artistic control and decisiveness on the part of my kid who up until that point had been a little terrified of the whole process but just dove in. Gave me a lot more confidence in the willingness to take risks and take control their destiny!
I get that it isn’t a “fair” process inasmuch as those with the most training and opportunity are going to have an advantage, given equal raw talent. I’m sure that also reflects the real day to day of an actor working to get roles. I wouldn’t expect my kid walking on to a basketball tryout at Duke to get on the team without unbelievable ability and thousands spent on elite prep. I just think that these close ties between program heads and private coaching programs doesn’t sit right with me.
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. We will take it to heart.
@DemonBarber Since my S is one of Moo’s kids, we can look where her kids from the last couple of years have landed. If I counted correctly, her most recent kids enrolled with 94 different programs. That is almost 3 times the number of programs that go to Moonifieds. I understand your suspicions, but I haven’t found any evidence of it. The only advantage that I see with her program is that the kids that she feels are ready can go to Moonifieds. The schools at Moonifieds see those kids before most any others and are able to pay real attention to each individual kid auditioning. Some of those kids probably get early offers but the offers are still based solely on talent.
With regard to training and coaching, really no different than the athletes who have private coaches and attend expensive summer camps or academic students who have tons of SAT / ACT tutoring and attend science camps at MIT or wherever. Do these kids have an advantage? I think so because they are being groomed from a young age. Is it fair? What’s fair? They have the money and choose to spend it on that vs. other things (or both). No such thing as level playing field in college admissions or life!
So, I did mention to him that yup…I can see why he “played it with feeling.” And he was the only accompanist who seemed to readily know both songs he sang. I know there are standard rules regarding “No Jason Robert Brown, No Sondheim, etc.” mainly because the accompaniment is SO hard. Often changes key, tempo, time signature, etc. And it is hard to do without rehearsing first. Also generally avoid anything that says “freely” on it…LOL. Most of these kids have never “led” their accompanist. And they are used to following the music. Completely different ball game. SOOOOO, I got a friend of mine to come down from Denton (UNT Music School) and do a trial run for these kids – sheet music sight unseen. He has a Ph.D. in piano so maybe I should have aimed a little lower because he effortlessly played all their music. Which did NOT happen at auditions. I think the worst one was at NTDA. The accompanist played the first four measures, then stopped. The poor kid went all the way through a cappella. He was upset with me, initially, for letting him do that song. But he got 34 callbacks that night. And that song was why. A LOT of schools told him how impressed they were that he kept going and was in key and acted incredibly professionally. One of my friends, who is theatre director at a local community college with no MT, told me he was one of many students that had happened to during the day and that it was painful to watch. But most let it affect their audition and he kept on going and never missed a beat. Good things to make note of!