<p>Watson2Holmes/danielhstennis08:</p>
<p>where did OP specify undergraduate in his requirements?</p>
<p>Grad programs count considerably more in school prestige... prbably 80/20.</p>
<p>ESPN</a> - Counting down the most prestigious programs since 1984-85 - Men's College Basketball</p>
<p>Clearly Duke wins this entire thread. Everything on TV is true, remember?</p>
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exactly mia... berkeley isn't that good for undergrad
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<p>So, at #21, it's better than some 4,000 colleges. It "isn't that good" for undergrad? What? You, like many others, fall prey to the narrow mentality that pervades this site--you embrace the super-elites and reject anything that falls shortly below it as not only 'inferior' but 'poor' on an absolute scale. Newsflash: Berkelely is still an amazing school for undergrad, vastly underrated on this site.</p>
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beefs -- come back after you've been in business for awhile. Aside from CHYMPS, the service academies compete equally with all the top 20 -- but it's bifurcated -- some employers would strongly prefer an academy officer, some would strongly prefer a Top 20 and wouldn't touch anyone ever associated with the military with a ten foot pole. On average thought, its of equal value.
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<p>And prestige? I don't think so. I'd say many schools beat out the service academies in the general public.</p>
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Going to one of the service academies is one of the most honorable things you can do straight out of high school
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<p>You see, I have a problem with this whole idea of "honor." The way you put it, there's some kind of continuum of "honor," where certain paths gain certain degrees of "honor." I don't think going to a service academy is any more "honorable" than going to a university.</p>
<p>kyledavid, let me guess...you go to Berkeley? My condolences.</p>
<p>Beefs, I really don't need to spam for the Naval Academy; it speaks for itself. On CC, people get so wrapped up in the Universities that they forget about these places. You may not know what the Naval Academy is, but I assure you that people who matter do. Ever hear of Ross Perot, or John McCain? How about Jimmy Carter or Montel Williams? I guess you can kind of see where a military academy could lead to success.</p>
<p>As far as "honor", it really doesn't take much honor to go to a military academy rather than a university. I'd say it takes a lot of courage and humility to go to a military academy, especially those of my classmates and myself who turned down schools like Dartmouth and Princeton down to "waste away" our four years here in Annapolis, and probably have better stats and potential than 80% of the people on here. Ask the 10,500 applicants last year who didn't get in. To me, the net worth and personal development we get by coming to an institution such as here far outweighs any other undergraduate experience that I could imagine.</p>
<p>So, for anyone at my school, not going to a "wow" school according to some 20 year old kid on CC is really not much of a letdown. It may not be a "wow" school to the liberal person who doesn't hold the military in high regard, but the "wow" factor overall is hard to deny when you look at everything. 5th most Rhode Scholars, 1 President, 2 Nobel Prize Winners...and just think, I'm even conceeding that West Point has done more.</p>
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kyledavid, let me guess...you go to Berkeley? My condolences.
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<p>No, I don't, but thanks.</p>
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I'd say it takes a lot of courage and humility to go to a military academy
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<p>I think you're overplaying that...</p>
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You may not know what the Naval Academy is, but I assure you that people who matter do. Ever hear of Ross Perot, or John McCain? How about Jimmy Carter or Montel Williams?
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<p>There are many schools--Chicago, for example, or Berkeley--that have immense prestige among the people who "matter."</p>
<p>The service academies don't seem to be academic competitors with tippy-top universities. Sure, they can produce big-name people (as can most top universities), but they don't seem to have that grand prestige in academic circles. I'm not sure which 'circle' you're talking about; neither you nor I nor anyone else can really judge which one "matters"--hence the controversial nature of this thread. :)</p>
<p>KyleDavid, points well taken. I guess it really all depends who you're talking to and where.</p>
<p>As far as me "overplaying" the point...is there any reason why there are people here rather than attending the Ivy League schools they got into? I think it says something about their character. I mean you don't need a congressional nomination to go to Harvard...Congressmen have to invest in each person they send to the academies. I think if getting into one of these institutions is no joke "An act of Congress" think about who this might matter to.</p>
<p>Concerning academic circles-just look at the Rhodes scholar list each year. Not saying that this is the norm for the academies, but when 3 service academies are in the top 6 for schools with the most Rhodes Scholars...hmm, I would seem to think that statistic surely "matters". I guess we don't fit into the "other" academic circles because our primary objective is to commission military officers.</p>
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Clearly Duke wins this entire thread. Everything on TV is true, remember?
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<p>Coach K + average SAT of 900s (Duke's basketball athletes) provide the perfect combo.</p>
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I think it says something about their character.
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<p>Why? Do you presume to say that students who choose the West Point route have a greater sense of honor than those who choose other paths?</p>
<p>Edit: Sorry. "More courage and humility"?</p>
<p>You keep saying that your classmates at the Naval Academy have gotten into and turned down ivy league schools. From the College Board:</p>
<p>Test Scores
Middle 50% of
First-Year Students Percent Who
Submitted Scores
SAT Critical Reading: 560 - 660 87%
SAT Math: 600 - 690 87%</p>
<p>these are not ivy league numbers.</p>
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I think it says something about their character.
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<p>I like the Marine commercial, do you? But I got to say the Marines that I saw in person don't look as good. They need to change that hedious hair style.</p>
<p>Ah, but here is where I drop the hammer.</p>
<p>A few reasons why the scores are low-- One third of the class is from prep schools or prior enlisted Navy, thus bringing the scores down. The high school average is well above 1380.</p>
<p>And by classmates, I have not mentioned myself. I also got into Princeton, Dartmouth, Notre Dame, Tulane and Boston College. Granted, I am an athlete, but admission is admission. I'm not going to talk about my stats or SAT scores or anything like that, but I will tell you that I'm barely in the top 50% of my class at the Naval Academy (532/1115).</p>
<p>But, I have to brag a little bit just to get my point across. I'm not the only one here who turned down the Ivy league or had 1400+.</p>
<p>Bourne: If you got into West Point and, say, Princeton, where would you go? Ask yourself the question before you pose what it might mean to others. Many people are going to pick Princeton because they're looking down the road for their own benefit. Talk about being truely service oriented...with a lot of Ivy leaguers, that ends after high school just so they could put that on their applications.</p>
<p>You can boil it down to SAT's, beefs, just remember the demographic of the institution. In order to create good officers, some of those have to be prior enlisted. The Naval Academy doesn't care if bringing in better officer candidates lowers its average SAT score because there is simply too much on the line once we graduate here to bring in people who are purely academic and at the end of the day, can't get the job done leading other people.</p>
<p>There is no courageous choice. Excuse this frequent cliche, but it's based on fit/desire.</p>
<p>Because I simply desire a different atmosphere than that which I assume would be prevalent at the service academies is not due to a difference in courage or dedication.</p>
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I mean you don't need a congressional nomination to go to Harvard...Congressmen have to invest in each person they send to the academies.
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<p>Are you implying that it's 'easier' to get into Harvard than the service academies? In addition, does the congressional nomination requirement make many applicants ineligible, thus lowering the acceptance rate? Or were all those rejected also nominated by Congress members?</p>
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Not saying that this is the norm for the academies, but when 3 service academies are in the top 6 for schools with the most Rhodes Scholars...hmm, I would seem to think that statistic surely "matters".
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<p>It's only a very small measure. Honestly, that's largely dependent on how rigorously the school spends some of its resources to prepare its students. Rhodes Scholars numbers only give a small clue into the 'academics' of a university, and they certainly aren't enough to merit consideration as a separate academic 'circle.'</p>
<p>What about all the other academic measures? Top programs? Top professors? Top students? Peer assessment? I will say that these will put a university in a position of prestige/reputation in academic circles, and that the service academies may not have all of them yet still maintain their own prestige.</p>
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Many people are going to pick Princeton because they're looking down the road for their own benefit.
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<p>And many people are going to pick Princeton because they're looking for other ways to serve their community, state, country. The service academies are not the only way.</p>
<p>Plus, does someone necessarily have more honor, courage, or humility for going into the army after graduation instead of attending a top school? I don't think that's necessarily true, or even commonly true.</p>
<p>Yes Bourne, but realize too that it's really not just "going to college" for 4 years. It's about 18 credits a semester of brutal engineering and other core classes in addition to your major. All of us here are going to the Navy and Marines to serve 5 years when we're done.</p>
<p>Are we all then destined to find work in corporate settings slaving away to attach meaning to our rather expensive education? </p>
<p>I well understand the commitment to service you and many others have made, however it is no more/less noble than the commitment that many graduates of top universities will make. </p>
<p>The importance of serving one's country does not supersede or diminish other paths. It exists solely as something to be proud of.</p>
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It's about 18 credits a semester of brutal engineering and other core classes in addition to your major.
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<p>Schools like Berkeley, Stanford, etc. (and many others) are going to be much the same way. The service acadmies don't hold a monopoly on rigor.</p>
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All of us here are going to the Navy and Marines to serve 5 years when we're done.
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<p>I don't see what that says about the students. Definitely not "courage."</p>
<p>Funny twist this thread has taken.</p>
<p>Service academies average 18% acceptance and about 1270 midpoint SAT.</p>
<p>An employer looks for a really smart, self directed person who understands their role in the organization, and gets along with people. The service academies have a track record of graduating people like that. Chararcter is big.</p>
<p>I agree that "prestige" is probably not the best descriptor of a university that facilitates this kind of graduate. Prestige is about cutting edge academics and little if anything to do with character or business fit.</p>
<p>Perhaps our current political climate sheds some light on this debate over service academies and universities.</p>
<p>McCain went to the Naval Academy and has served the country in an official public service capacity for his entire adult life. </p>
<p>Obama went to Columbia and served some of the poorest, disenfranchised people in the country in a less official capacity and has worked to gain a level of power so that he could have a far greater impact.</p>
<p>Who was more courageous and humble? An argument could be made that both have served the nation in different but important ways. </p>
<p>On another note - I understand GoNavyXC's goal is to interject the service academies into this forum at every opportunity, but I'm not sure the argument that Congress is making an investment stands as a strong argument. Congress makes investments in many absurd, irrational, and completely wasteful initiatives every year.</p>
<p>honestly, in terms of prestige, its foolish to think any comes even close to Harvard. not even close. Obviously, academically wise , its more close and some may argue schools such as Princeton and Stanford are on par with it. However, based solely on prestige globally Harvard kills everything! Random people halfway around the world who are homeless have heard of Harvard and not anything else. You may feel im exaggerating but thats what i think.</p>