<p>(excerpts)
"The big paradox is that the computer science revolution is just unfolding," Chazelle said. "Why, then, are students are running away from it; why is there this decline when the field has never been more exciting?"
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At the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, Bernard Chazelle, professor of computer science at Princeton University, plans to issue a call to arms for his profession, challenging his colleagues to grab society by the lapels and evangelize the importance of studying computer science. According to the most recent data available, the top 36 computer science departments in the United States saw enrollments drop nearly 20 percent between 2000 and 2004."</p>
<p>Is this a potential advantage for computer science applicants?</p>
<p>Gee, bluebayou, I suspect so. I suspect he also realizes that line workers at McDonalds will never replace Wolfgang Puck and Emeril Lagasse. </p>
<p>As a parent of a CS major, I can tell you that the kind of CS research and development he is talking about is not being outsourced. The kind of CS R&D going on at Princeton, JHU, CM, and Caltech are not being outsourced. </p>
<p>Altovoce, you are exactly right, there are opportunities for CS majors. It's just that it's not the kind of computer work that most people think of, because they are never exposed to it.</p>
<p>I was being somewhat cynical having just worked in two companies that have outsourced 100% of US employees. I also understand his theoretical approach....BUT, it I was a kid looking for something to major in, I would put theoretical CS in the same vein as theorectical math -- great for a TV show ("Numbers") but, not sure how many opportunities there are outside of academia. The point that Chazelle should/could address is which corporations will pay for this type of R&D to be completed in the US -- even Bill Gates has outsourced some of Microsoft's R&D....Bill just calls it "new" investments.</p>
<p>I'm interested in this topic. It seems to me that the kind of student the professor seeks to encourage is the "theoretical" kind of student with a strong--even profound--math and physics background. The kind who might be equipped to develop the next great concepts, rather than step into the standard 80K/year engineering/programming jobs.</p>
<p>That 20% drop must be at the lower level schools because the ones we dealt last year with didn't have any trouble getting the number of students they wanted to accept, numbers that were were consisent with enrollments in years past.</p>
<p>Applications did seem to be down since 2000 and the dot.com bubble burst, though, but only from such dizzing heights that it probably wouldn't matter to most students. YMMV</p>
<p>This might be too off-topic, but I think it is a shame that more students, including arts & letters students, don't take a course in beginning computer programming. Not PowerPoint or even Excel. It can be a great logical-thinking course in addition to being an introduction to what makes computers tick. I suppose discrete math (or formal logic from the Philosophy department) can in part serve this function, but not very many non-CS majors take them either. On the other hand, there is less call for whipping out a short BASIC, Pascal or Fortran program than there used to be, for most of us.</p>
<p>Has anyone thought about Chazelle's obvious conflict of interest regarding this topic? Fewer students means less power and influence for him. </p>
<p>Yea, it's great to talk about all the great stuff top departments at CMU, Stanford, etc. do. Now, ask yourself how many of their OWN grads can get jobs there? Where do you think the rest go? Where do you think the jobs they might otherwise get are going?</p>
<p>Whenever you hear these technology calls to arms, look at the back story, which is usually about funding/money for the incumbents. We hear the same thing about many areas of science, as our kids completing PhD degrees are stuck in marginal, no future jobs.</p>
<p>I don't see that happening in CS yet, though, not only at these schools but at the local state U, too. Their grads are finding jobs, typically at salaries above average for their schools.</p>
<p>There are too issues about CS that may be clouding the issue. It's no longer the fastest growing job in the country and after the dot.com bubble burst in 2000, salaries and the number of jobs available dropped from artificially high levels to something approaching what they would have been without the bubble. That's a shock to the system, but it appears to have worked itself out by now.</p>
<p>Certainly outsourcing has had an impact, but the numbers there are relatively small. They tend to affect the lower level jobs but hardly eliminate the need for new graduates. There are too many jobs that really can't be done overseas. </p>
<p>From what I see, the bigger impact would be from the large number of high caliber immigrants entering the field from India and Pakistan. That certainly increases competition for jobs, but that only makes CS less of the boom field it was a few years ago. That would have happened even without all this they way it always does when people flock to the hot job area.</p>
<p>You can get stuck in marginal, no future jobs, but then you can in engineering or any techical field. If anything the one thing that outsourcing has done was to eliminate some of the grunt jobs and created to opportunities for talented people to do more creative parts of the job earlier in their career.</p>
<p>FWIW, I am in the industry and have seen a lot of companies over the past few years, so I have a pretty good sense of what's really happening across the country. My company helps other companies outsource if they're interested. I certainly have nothing to gain by encouraging more students to enter the field, btw. </p>
<p>And my S's a CS major so we looked at a lot of schools and how their graduates were doing against other majors. The future for CS graduates isn't as brilliant as it once was, but that only means it's simply joined the ranks of solid (more realistic) futures. YMMV</p>
<p>Very well said, Strick. I think the difference is that it is the lowest skilled jobs that are outsourced. Back in the boom, anyone who could write 2 lines of Java was a guru. Now, even the fairly well-paying jobs in gaming are of limited interest to my son, because of the repetitive nature of the work and lack of potential.</p>
<p>CS is among those fields in the hard sciences and engineering where there is a dearth of American students, particularly graduate students. IMHO, that's because these fields are difficult, and take a lot of work, including especially math at a high level.</p>
<p>Wyogal - I agree with you. I think that kids in the US shy away from CS because it is hard and doesn't apparently lead easily to a great office on Wall Street or in a law firm. And I also agree with Chazelle - there is still an enormous amount of interesting work to be done in CS. There is a temporary hiatus right now as we wait for the devices to catch up - and whoever got that ChemE degree and is working on the next great battery let me know and I will invest:). But as soon as this next set of networking and hardware issues are solved it will be amazing.</p>
<p>For the talented, CS is a fabulous field.</p>
<p>Oh, and BTW, I work for an outsourcing company doubling every year with most of our people in Shanghai and I still believe that any kid with talent in the US ought to go for CS if they like it at all.</p>
<p>I myself, a person who excels in computers, was going to go into CS, but turned away after concerns of outsourcing. It's nice to major in something you enjoy, but if there is no employment in the area, things change. You've got to pay the bills some how.</p>
<p>I have no study to support this, just personal observation, but I'd wager that at least some of those students who might have gone into cs ten years ago are now among those flooding economic departments all over the country.</p>
<p>I have been around academe a long time and have observed the ebb and flow of job prospects on numerous occasions. And the recent decline of students majoring in CompSci is very predictable and quite normal.</p>
<p>However there will always be ample opportunities in any profession for most science and engineering graduates and wonderful ones for the top quintile of grads. And because post graduate prospects can and do change very quickly, I would never steer a student away from an area of study he loves because of current economic conditions.</p>
<p>Regarding the outsourcing of tech jobs, I recently read that a total of 300,000 jobs were outsourced last year, a mere drop in the bucket compared to the total number of jobs in the USA. In addition, those industries dealing with intellectual property(of which computer systems programming/engineering is one) are wary because of the well documented issues of IP theft which is rampant in China and India and where governments are, how shall we put it, less than diligent in protecting IP patents and copyrights!</p>
<p>Remember IT services, where (I'm guessing) 50% of CS grads end up. Market is quite good for volume and wages are starting to rise. Just check Monster or Dice or even Yahoo Jobs - opportunities overseas as well (UK, Canada, Ireland). Services, versus outsourcing programming, ebb and flow somewhat with the economy, but there are always jobs.</p>
<p>I do think it is important to really look at a department's strength and the number of recruiters that hire. A plug for U Maryland here - its graduates are in high demand, and there are endless fields of paid internships and jobs right out of school. Many graduates get hired by the firms for which they intern, like my stepdaughter's husband. Four years later, he's commanding a lot of money and has his dream job - programming for a top-selling online interactive game.</p>
<p>Another reason for the drop is that a CS/EE major, the two most popular among computer types, have very high attrition rates. Perhaps this is where we are seeing the impact of the HS math and science curriculum. the advanced courses are very applied math and physics oriented.</p>
<p>I would suggest that the professor go back and request better math and science preparation in the school systems.</p>
<p>If you want consistent employment in CS, look at the top defense companies. We haven't been able to fully staff our programs in several years. The same can be said for systems and aero engineers. Be sure you have some math and physics, along with the more technical CS courses.</p>