Top 8 Reasons Not to Go to Berkeley

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
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<p>Sakky:</p>

<p>First, I never said that great people didn't graduate from the IVYs. Did I? So bringing up GWB and BG is irrelevant. I'm just saying that they certainly do not have the market cornered on successful graduates. </p>

<p>There is no duplicity in my statement about UC Berkeley being a great school. It is. That doesn't mean that if a person goes to UC Berkeley they are automatically going to be more successful than a person who goes to SF State (BTW USF and CSUSF State are different schools), or any other college. We are talking about the ability of the individual to succeed in the "real world". </p>

<p>Let's take, for example, a person who does an undergraduate major in accounting at CSUSF and a person who does a non-engineering major at UC Berkeley. Right out of college the person with the accounting degree is going to earn more money than the person with the UC Berkeley (non-engineering) degree. If the CSUSF grad continues in accounting and gets their CPA they can have a very prosperous life and may even earn more money than many IVY grads. Is this true in all cases; no. Even when you compare an undergrad accounting major's salary to a UC Berkely engineering grad's salary it is competitive. </p>

<p>As far as the California mindset is concerned, there are kids in California who want to go to the IVYs. However, in California, the IVYs are not a big deal. Who, in their right mind, would trade going to a beautiful campus like UC San Diego, UCLA, Pepperdine, etc. to go sit in the snow and blizzards in a hell hole of a state like Massachusetts for Harvard or beautiful upstate New York in the dead of winter buried in snow at Cornell? </p>

<p>My daughter, who, by the way, is the reason I found my way to this board, is a California girl who is in the top 3% of her class, very high SATs, and a lot of extracurricular activities. She refused to apply anywhere outside of California. She was thinking about U of Chicago, Princeton, and Columbia. However, when she thought of having to move NY, Chicago, or New Jersey, she said no way. After all, when you live in California, a short distance from the beach; why would you want to live anywhere else? </p>

<p>Her goal is to become a lawyer. No lawyer jokes please. So, she is applying to some of those schools you look down on like UC Berkeley (I thought I would mention this one first), UCLA, UC San Diego, USF and a few other California schools. Will my daughter be able to get a job and compete against IVY grads in the legal profession when she gets in the real world? I'm betting she has a better than even chance of being very successful in law.</p>

<p>You know what I told her when she asked me for college advice? I said, it doesn't matter where you go to school as long as you like where you are going and are doing what makes you happy. She is doing just that.</p>

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So bringing up GWB and BG is irrelevant. I'm just saying that they certainly do not have the market cornered on successful graduates.

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<p>And when did I ever say that they did have the market cornered? Please point to the quote where I specifically said that. </p>

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Who, in their right mind, would trade going to a beautiful campus like UC San Diego, UCLA, Pepperdine, etc. to go sit in the snow and blizzards in a hell hole of a state like Massachusetts for Harvard or beautiful upstate New York in the dead of winter buried in snow at Cornell?

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<p>Are you trying to say that these schools will beat Harvard in the cross-admit battle? Like I said, Harvard beats EVERYBODY in the cross-admit battle, including Stanford. </p>

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So, she is applying to some of those schools you look down on like UC Berkeley (I thought I would mention this one first), UCLA, UC San Diego, USF and a few other California schools.

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<p>And who said that I "looked down" on Berkeley or those other schools? I have always said that, #1, Berkeley's PhD program are competitive with everyone, and #2, Berkeley's undergrad program is the best public program in the West Coast, and arguably the best in the country other than Virginia (and may possibly be better than Virginia). </p>

<p>I simply believe that an undergraduate level, Berkeley has severe matchup problems with HYPSMC and with some of the elite LAC'.s But so what? Lots of places have severe undergraduate matchup problems with those schools. That doesn't mean that I think Berkeley undergrad is bad it's just not as good as some of the others. </p>

<p>I suppose you are taking the position that unless I think that Berkeley is the greatest school in the history of the world, I am "looking down on it". What is wrong with the position that Berkeley is good, but not the best? </p>

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You know what I told her when she asked me for college advice? I said, it doesn't matter where you go to school as long as you like where you are going and are doing what makes you happy. She is doing just that.

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<p>Yet we both know that the quality of the school matters. That is why we debate it so much. If school quality really didn't matter at all, most of the posts on this discussion forum wouldn't exist.</p>

<p>Now, does individual effort and achievement matter? Of course it does. But that's not the issue. The issue is that school quality also matters. Certain schools will give you a better chance to succeed than others. That's why more people want to go to Berkeley than to UCDavis or to SF State. This is particularly so for graduate school - far more people would want to get their PhD's at Berkeley than at, say, UCRiverside. Like it or not, a better school gives you a better chance of success. Does it guarantee you success? Of course not. But the chances are better. We all know this, which is why we fight so hard to get into the best school we can. If this wasn't true, the state of California might as well just dissolve the entire UC and CalState systems and turn them all into commmunity colleges.</p>

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<p>My only question is, why College Senior wants to suffer 4 years in a college that he is so disgusted with. If Berkeley is for sub-par people and obviously he thinks that he's better then most, why didn't he transfer out of that stupid place in his sophmore year but instead spent the next 3 years to be in a place he rather not to be in? I am sure there are lots of other sub-par people dying to be in Berkeley if he can transfer to one of those more "elite" universities if he is so much better.</p>

<p>I can undertsand a freshman bashing about his own college but I have a difficult time understanding why a person would stick with it for 4 years, complaining about it constantly and yet not to do anything about it.</p>

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<p>John Cho from Harold and Kumar graduated from Berkeley. =] he's famous too.</p>

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<p>Saaky,</p>

<p>I think, that everybody wants to get into the "best college" they can. However, what they should really be doing is trying to get into the best college for them. This means, the best college in a geographic location where they want to go to school; the college that is most compatible with their life goals; the college that they can best afford; the college where they will be happy; the college where they can find people who they are compatible with. A college decision is three dimensional; not linear. </p>

<p>For example, if a person were a right wing conservative; the may not like UC Berkeley. If a person wanted to study English Literature, Caltech might not be the right place for them. If a person didn't like cold weather, the holy grail of education, all hail, Harvard, might not be the right place for them. If a person was a liberal, Oral Roberts College might not be the place for them. You get my point.</p>

<p>You know I never said that UC Berkeley is the "greatest school in the history of the world". Nor is Harvard. The greatest school in the history of the world is the proverbial school of "real life" experience.</p>

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New Member</p>

<p>Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1 My only question is, why College Senior wants to suffer 4 years in a college that he is so disgusted with. If Berkeley is for sub-par people and obviously he thinks that he's better then most, why didn't he transfer out of that stupid place in his sophmore year but instead spent the next 3 years to be in a place he rather not to be in? I am sure there are lots of other sub-par people dying to be in Berkeley if he can transfer to one of those more "elite" universities if he is so much better.

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<p>Well, in fairness to College Senior, a transfer to a good school ain't no walk in the park. At most schools, especially the elite private schools, transfer spots are few and far between, such that it is clearly harder to get in as a transfer than as a freshman. For example, Princeton has not accepted a single transfer student for about a decade. Harvard accepts only a handful a year.</p>

<p>As a parallel, consider MIT. There is a small, but quite vocal group of highly discontented MIT alumni. Caltech too has its share of quite ****ed off alumni. Basically these are people who just didn't fit in the culture of the school, for example, people who discovered that they truly have no interest in the sciences and math. But of course if you have no interest in science and math, you are probably going to get bad grades at MIT/Caltech such that no good school wants to take you as a transfer. So these people basically just had to grin and bear it. Yeah they graduated (barely, in some cases), but they clearly didn't like it. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I would reiterate that that still doesn't mean that I totally agree with College Senior. I agree that the Berkeley undergrad program has its flaws that need to be fixed. I agree that the undergrad program could be made a whole lot better. </p>

<p>However, I also believe that Berkeley is still better than a lot of other places. You could do a lot worse than going to Berkeley.</p>

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<p>The cross-admit battle theory of excellence you keep bringing up is deceptive. There are a lot of high school seniors in California who would have a good or even excellent chance of getting in Harvard or any other IVY who don't even apply because of Harvard's geographic location. Let's face, for a young adult, it life in Massachusetts sucks compared to life in California. You really have to want to go to Harvard to give up a life in California to go to Massachusetts. Therefore, this group of highly qualified students from California will never get into a cross-admit battle vsi-a-vis Harvard and another school. </p>

<p>Also, I'll bet Harvard doesn't win many cross-admit battles when you have a California resident who, after thinking about it, would rather stay in California and go to Stanford or a highly ranked UC. As I said before, Harvard is not a big deal for HS seniors in California. Sure there are some seniors in Califrnia who just gotta go to Harvard but there are more who just gotta go to UC Berkeley or Stanford. Where I live in Califrnia, UC Berkeley and Stanford are the gotta go to schools for the real smart kids. And don't tell me that's because I live in the ghetto or something stupid like that.</p>

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<p>Berkeley has its problems, like every school, but come on, it's not all bad -- you gotta find the positives and try to focus on those when you have them. Everything else is just another hoop you have to leap through to get through the Berkeley gauntlet that can be at times great, and other times hell. Lots of people don't like aspects of Cal for myriads of reasons. I wouldn't say my time there was/is the most enjoyable, but the good times outweigh the bad to a large degree.</p>

<p>Seriously, the social life exists, but it takes effort to find. Go Greek or, if that's not your thing, join a Co-Op or find a club. You just gotta get past all the kids who like sitting in their rooms waiting for their high school friends to sign onto AIM so they can bother them all day. Like everything else, initiative. There are great social opportunities there in the scant free time we are allowed.</p>

<p>As far as profs and GSIs go? Yea, there are plenty of bad ones, but the good ones are really stellar. Berkeley's education is what you make of it. Initiative. There are plenty of ways to find out which profs are boring and which ones are good, which ones cling to old/dead political/artistic/whatever theories and who works on the cutting edge, etc. Ask older students, read message boards, look at a professor review site, talk to people in the department. These resources are all there to help.</p>

<p>Liberal politics? Yea, it's a/can be a problem, I'll agree with that, but you have close minded bigots on both sides of the fence at every school. You want to find some like-minded conservatives? Or you wanna find radical left-wing marxist/leninist/stalinist/maoist socialists? They're there. Again, initiative.</p>

<p>Yea, Berkeley is in a slide both academically and diversity wise, but blame the people who don't wanna pay $2 more a year in taxes (yes, I know this is an understatement...)to prop up the school and billybob out in Tules who thought voting for Prop 259 or whatever the Affirmative Action Ban was because he thought his son who was smoking meth in the basement could get into someplace like Cal if they didn't let the minorities in on the basis of race. But people of all races, colors, creeds, and beliefs attend Berkeley, though it seems to be one-sidedly swamped by Asians at the moment. Maybe in ten years it will change, only time will tell. But you can find other people. Again, use initiative. You can't expect to go to a major university and expect everyone to be a White Protestant or Catholic.</p>

<p>I have to say my biggest gripe with the place at the moment is the "Patch-it-up, Don't Fix It" Bureaucracy that seems to reign supreme at Cal, but that's mostly because I'm trying to get EAP grades reported. Hate these hoops, especially when I have to leap through them from 9000 miles away. Oh yea, affirmative action for hot girls would be greatly appreciated. ;) (This is a joke, there are plenty of beautiful women at Cal.)</p>

<p>Berkeley is still a good school, but its definitely a school for go-getters and initiative takers.</p>

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<p>Good post. If you don't mind me asking, where did you decide to study and how are you enjoying it? I was thinking about doing it a while back but I just never followed through and now its too late.</p>

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<p>Ha, that list sounds exactly like the grievances listed on a thread discussing whether or not Michigan is overrated. It seems that there are common pitfalls at all state schools, be it Michigan or Berkeley or Podunk-State-U. I'd say that ls a good cautionary list for anybody considering doing their undergraduates at state schools or large private schools like NYU or USC. However, people have also made good points about universities like MIT or CalTech, which will chew you up and spit you out if you aren't completely absorbed in math and science or if your background is less rigorous than your magnet school/prep school peers. </p>

<p>I really feel like the undergraduate education most CC-ers are looking for exists mainly within the confines of liberal arts colleges like Swarthmore and Amherst, which seem to encourage self-discovery and provide nurturing environments. Very few people on CC are willing to look seriously at these colleges because of the possible ego blow of "[insert liberal arts college here]? Where's that?" asked by people who really don't matter. So until people are willing to pursue the educational and social settings that will ideally fit them regardless of prestige, parental input and the like, this discussion of the ever-elusive perfect undergraduate education will remain a topic of contention on CC.</p>

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<p>btw, regarding the cross-country admit battle, i live in california and i know very very very few people who would choose uc's or stanford over harvard...simply because of the name-brand...then again, that just might be my school, where everyone seems to have more pride than they deserve</p>

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<p>i'd also like to mention that i know a significant number of kids from my school who got into harvard, but not into stanford...and i know one who got into harvard and not into berkeley, but she was a URM, maybe that's why...</p>

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The cross-admit battle theory of excellence you keep bringing up is deceptive. There are a lot of high school seniors in California who would have a good or even excellent chance of getting in Harvard or any other IVY who don't even apply because of Harvard's geographic location. Let's face, for a young adult, it life in Massachusetts sucks compared to life in California. You really have to want to go to Harvard to give up a life in California to go to Massachusetts. Therefore, this group of highly qualified students from California will never get into a cross-admit battle vsi-a-vis Harvard and another school. </p>

<p>Also, I'll bet Harvard doesn't win many cross-admit battles when you have a California resident who, after thinking about it, would rather stay in California and go to Stanford or a highly ranked UC. As I said before, Harvard is not a big deal for HS seniors in California. Sure there are some seniors in Califrnia who just gotta go to Harvard but there are more who just gotta go to UC Berkeley or Stanford. Where I live in Califrnia, UC Berkeley and Stanford are the gotta go to schools for the real smart kids. And don't tell me that's because I live in the ghetto or something stupid like that.

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<p>Yeah, but you forget that the converse is true. There are people from all over the country but especially in the Northeast who will apply to Harvard but not Berkeley. After all, if you're an out-of-state student, the appeal of going to Berkeley is diminished. </p>

<p>So just like you have highly qualified Californians who don't apply to Harvard, you have highly qualified non-Californians who don't apply to Berkeley. The US has 260 million non-Californians vs. 35 million Californians. So what you have pointed out actually STENGTHENS the argument that Harvard gets more of the best students in the country than California does. </p>

<p>Or to put a more direct spin on the situation. Take the best student from Texas. If he had to make the choice between 2 schools, which would it be, Harvard or Berkeley? How about the best student from New York state? How abou the best from Florida? How about the best from Pennsylvania? How about the best from Illinois? How about the best from Ohio? Or Michigan? Or Georgia? Or New Jersey? Those are the 9 most populous states after California.</p>

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<p>Sakky, although I agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that you said the exact opposite not to long ago. Something about even the people appying to HYSP needing one sure thing. If I wasn't so lazy I'd look it up.</p>

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<p>Sakky, I reckon I could've gotten into Cornell if I had wanted, maybe not the other Ivies (well maybe U Penn or Brown or something), but maybe the lowest Ivy on the list, and I never applied. Berkeley was my top choice, and my dad's second choice for me. (Stanford was his first, and I didn't apply because I didn't want to waste my time.)</p>

<p>What an idiot am I....please, tell me how stupid I am for not going to Cornell or some Ivy. I'm such a dumbass. Why did I make Berkeley my top choice?</p>

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<p>Just let this topic die. The bottom line is that some people like it here, some people dont- just like any school in the world. You can argue each of those points in the original paragraph all the way up to Harvard or MIT. I tend to like it at Berkeley because I didnt see them as true. Berkeley has many good teachers and a lot of good clubs. Dont just believe me. On a lot of websites, especially college rankings, more Berkeley students want to come BACK to Berkeley than any other group of UC Students from their corresponding UC. WHen you're older and look back at it all, you'll remember everything in a positive light. Think when youwere in the Senior year of HS. You probably had everything in the world to complain about. Now, it's a nostalgic experience. Enjoy it while you can at Berkeley.</p>

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<p>Delicatess,</p>

<p>You're as much of an idiot as I am for going to UCLA.</p>

<p>(read: not at all)</p>

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<p>Saaky, </p>

<p>You wrote:</p>

<p>"The US has 260 million non-Californians vs. 35 million Californians. So what you have pointed out actually STENGTHENS the argument that Harvard gets more of the best students in the country than California does."</p>

<p>Most of the wealth in the United States is concentrated in California. I think California would be the 6th or 7th largest economy in the world if we were a separate country. I'm sure that Stanford. UC Berkeley, UCLA, Caltech, UC San Diego, and all the other California Universities/Colleges are doing just fine and aren't worried about Harvard stealing any of their applicants or admits. </p>

<p>The very fact that you have to use all of the other 49 states combined to make a comparison to California proves my point about the power and appeal of California. I was born and raised in California, but I did live in New York for 5 years and, without few exceptions, every New Yorker I knew dreamed of moving to California and living here. 9 out of 10 of them never made it. The folks on the East Coast have their own power structure and ways of doing things that are very different from the way people do things and live in California. For people on the East Coast, the IVY league is a big deal. However, in California, the IVY league is not such a big deal. Sure, there are people who are exceptions to the rule in California and think the IVY league is a big deal. But then again, there are more than a few students on the East Coast who would jump at the chance to go to UC Berkeley or Stanford before going to Harvard. As a matter of fact, Chelsea Clinton, chose Stanford over Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. There's one high profile cross admit your good old Harvard didn't win. </p>

<p>The main advantage that Harvard has over many other top schools is that it has been around much longer than the other schools. I think Harvard is about 150 years old than UC Berkeley. So, old habits, like people thinking Harvard is some type of academic nirvana, die hard.</p>

<p>Based on what I see at my daughter's high school, the top students are not applying to Harvard. Even though a few got admitted to Harvard last year, I think only one actually attended. His mother, father, and brother are Harvard alums. Nice people. Most of the top students go to Stanford and UC Berkeley. </p>

<p>I guess if you are a name brand shopper who buys Gucci bags, Tiffany jewelry, Cadillac Escalades, and other bling; then you would be attracted to Harvard. That's cool. Everybody has to have something to validate their existence. </p>

<p>By analogy, you could say that Harvard is the GM of Universities and UC Berkeley is the Toyota of universities. </p>

<p>Get over it Saaky, Harvard is no big deal.</p>

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<p>MichWoman, I think you are mistinterpreting most ccers. I think of most of them want to go to the biggest name school that they think will be best for them, which is almost always elite, and if it's an LAC, it's probably an elite LAC. If it isn't, it's probably an Ivy or Ivy equivalent.</p>

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<p>G&S: (I assume your reply was to me?) I'm studying the dreaded fluff major, American Studies, but I managed to weasel my way into the honors track, which is definitely a lot more rigorous and flexible in all truth than the mainline major. I get to talk to the professors, interact, and form friendship/bonds with them more than the average American Studies student, but I also am under a lot stricter scrutiny of my work. That's the inherent drawback of letting a professor know you are intelligent, they expect more from you, but I like it. </p>

<p>I also study German, also in honors and studying abroad, thus why I am 9000 miles away. German is hard enough in itself. They use long sentences and always tack a deadly long string of auxillary verbs at the end you always have to be mindful of where you place them because one alteration in word placement completely alters the meaning of a sentence. I'm in Germany right now and loving it. </p>

<p>The two might seem to be incongruous, but actually, I think it is beneficial for an AS student to study in another country, as their emphasis is on American cultural and sociological study in a certain area, and you need a strong, older culture to make accurate comparisons and put where America stands in perspective to the rest of the world. I like my field of study, I like my professors, I like my fraternity, I like my friends, I'm wary of the other students and city residents. ;)</p>