Top High Schools According to AP/IB Participation

Parents Forum
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<p>I don't think the mean scores prove a thing. A different pool of students take different AP tests. I would expect that BC calculus would have a high mean score because weak math students aren't going to be taking that exam. However, weak science students take AP environmental science and take the exam. Very few students who genuinely excel in science take that test. I think that explains the discrepency in the mean scores. </p>

<p>On the SAT II, the College Board adjusts the various scores so that the same score is supposed to represent the same level of mastery no matter what the subject matter. Thus, a 790 on the math iic exam is supposed to represent about the same level of mastery as a 790 on the US History exam, even though the percentage of students who take math 2c and achieve a 790 is much larger than the percentage of students who take the US history and achieve a 790. The pool of students taking the US history exam is MUCH larger and the median score on the SAT II is much lower. I don't think the lower median score proves that the SAT II in US history is more difficult than math iic. It doesn't mean the test is easier either. The discrepency in the mean scores is, IMO, a function of the difference in the group of students who take the two exams. </p>

<p>As further anecdotal proof of what I'm saying, a generation ago, relatively few high schools offered AP US history. Now, it's one of the most common AP courses and that exam has more sophomores taking it than any other AP.Most of these kids have not taken any high school-level US history course before taking the allegedly college-level AP US history course. Now despite the fact that these kids supposedly take a higher level history course than their parents who took the typical high school history course required for graduation, guess what? The College Board had to recenter the SAT IIs just as they had to recenter the SAT I. That's right...with a much lower percentage of students taking AP US history a generation ago, the mean SAT IIs in US history were much higher than they are now. You can't tell that by looking at your kids' scores..but something like a 680 on the US history in the old days is about a 730 now. Sure sounds more impressive, doesn't it? </p>

<p>The common explanation for the fact that median SAT scores are lower than a generation ago is that more kids are applying to college now, so it's not fair to compare the scores between generations. However, SAT IIs are taken by a much smaller group of students and despite the fact that most of them took an allegedly more rigorous college course, they get scores substantially below those achieved by students who had only taken high school American history courses. This is true across the board by the way. If our high schools are so much more rigorous now, why do the kids who take SAT IIs do so much worse? (The only exception is math, and that is because they now can use calculators.) </p>

<p>I'm not suggesting that AP lite courses aren't worthwhile. Indeed, my earlier message explicitly stated that I recognize that they are. I'm just saying that it's silly to claim that when a lot of kids skip basic high school courses like physics or precalculus to take courses like AP environmental science or AP psych or art history or US government or other BEGINNING courses, it makes the high school better. Mathews silly index says it does. And by weighting all AP courses , as many high schools do, we are encouraging kids to take AP lite courses so they can achieve higher class ranks.
Oh, BTW, AP-lite isn't a term I invented. It's one that's widely used.</p>

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<p>I don't have any quarrel with the list as presented. Its simply factual, right? Its one way to rank. Clearly it gives some odd results. Admissions officers would rank somewhat differently, I think. </p>

<p>Using test participation to measure schools is interesting. It gives you the highest ranked schools in test participation. The list ought to be titled as such..."highest index of AP tests taken by everyone, divided by seniors". </p>

<p>THe index would be better by far if you restricted it to the solid AP course like Calc, Physics, Chemistry, and maybe you could let Bio in there too. It would also be better if the scores were considered. What you have now is the sports equivalent of the number of players dressed on the sidelines in all sports, including chess club and stage crew. In the end, it says much more about selling magazines than it does wbout where you might want to send your child to high scool.</p>

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<p>I spoke to Matthews about his rating system. He agrees that there are a number of other factors that should be considered; however, he wanted a way to mathematically rate schools. His belief, which isn't totally unfounded, is that if more AP and IB courses are taken at a school, the curriculum is more rigorous. Moreover, studies have shown that the harder the curriculum, the better the student generally does in college. </p>

<p>I have seen various posts stating that this rating system rewards schools that encourage AP lite courses. One person actually felt that high school physics must be harder than AP environment. Did they take both courses to determine this for sure? I took high school physics and took environmental biology in college. My college course was indeed tougher. Moreover, the vast majority of kids, at least in our high school, doesn't take AP lite exams. Most exams are in physics, chemistry, english, world history et. al. </p>

<p>Someone else noted that this rating system simply rewards the wealthier counties and schools. There is some truth to this,but there are well-ranked schools on the US News list that are not necessarily wealthy schools. However, the wealthier schools do seem to perform better. Here in Mongomery County Maryland, the median SAT scores by school has a very high correlation with average income level of the parents of those students. Also, wealthy schools raise more money for better programs and more intensive work. For example, our school raised money for marching band uniforms and for band equipment for all band members because our county "didn't have the money." Wealthy schools have advantages like this. Moreover, top teachers want to come to the better schools because there are more motivated students and usually less violent crime. We just recruited two top teachers from other high schools. Thus, wheather this is right or wrong, wealthier schools do perform better and do provide a better educational environment. </p>

<p>I did say to Mr. Matthews that if his assumptions had any validity, he should incorporate the number of students in honor's courses too as part of the calculation. He will consider that if he can get those numbers. AP and IB exam numbers are readily available. He doens't think that the number of students taking honor's courses are as available.</p>

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<p>taxguy:</p>

<p>I hope Jay does not add honors courses to his index, since there is no valid way to normalize them acrosss schools. "Honors' courses at our school are difficult, with no grade inflation (<20% A's), whereas the 'honor's program at my nephew's HS in the midwest is the old College Prep program -- newly renamed this year! The esrstwhile HS-credit only (graduation) classes, are now called "college track" as in Junior College track. Won't likely help getting kids into the state flagship U, but makes the folks in their locale "feel" good. </p>

<p>At least with AP/IB, there are objective, quantificable data, even if many seniors skip the AP tests. The other item potentially missing in his numerator is the number of dual enrollment courses, e.g., Calculus taught at the HS campus by the local college for college credit/transcript. Since they automatically receive college credit which is usually transferable, only a rare student pays the $90 and takes the Calc ap test. (Jay does ask for data from HS's on this issue, but many GC's refuse to provide it -- don't want to play his game; which is another reason why honors classes shouldn't be included, IMO.) </p>

<p>To Jay's detractors, pls read the Q&A on the website. It'll explain the methodology and his rationale, for better or worse.</p>

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<p>Well, it's not that "they don't want to play the game"... Matthews tries to ser standards (and completely unreasonable): "I tried to set a standard—we would only count dual enrollment final exams that were at least two hours long and had some free response questions that required thought and analysis" (from FAQ). </p>

<p>Aghem. So how exactly are the schoolteachers going make the university comply? Yeah, sure, the university professor just will add the analytical free-response questions to his exam, and another one will make all his students sit in the auditorium for two hours, just because Matthews wants to "set a standard" :D</p>

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<p>"Challenge index" is an accurate title, I think. It is better to take the AP and/or IB classes if possible, as they have value in preparing a student for a more demanding workload in college. A high ranking on this list doesn't mean the schools offering these programs are necessarily "better" for the average or even top-of-the-trees student - in most cases, the public schools on this list do not have better teachers or accelerated whiz-bang programs. It is just that there is more of a demand for these courses depending on the wealth and education level of the families in the school's district.</p>

<p>Example: my son's school is in the top third of this list - several other schools in the county are in the top 100 - two of those have 400 students each in highly selective magnet programs, which naturally raise the school's AP/IB index significantly. In the case of our local HS, although it is highly diverse and has a relatively high number of ESOL, special needs, and underprivileged kids, it offers 25 AP classes (the max number in our county) and encourages everyone to plunge right in starting in 10th grade. The offerings, qualified teachers, and encouragement are there, there are just fewer takers.</p>

<p>The only substantial difference I can see among most of our county's schools is that those with more advantaged populations have a proportionally greater number of top students. This increases competition for grades and awards, and means that instead of twenty students applying to top 10 Universities and LACs, there may be upwards of fifty. Pro = more opportunities for smart buddies; Con = everyone's vying for your slot at The Perfect College.</p>

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<p>We share the same opinion of the Matthews index. I especially do not like the fact that the index completely ignores student performance on AP exams. </p>

<p>However, consider the following regarding the AP Lite issue:</p>

<p>You seem to be arguing that the "hard" AP science classes and AP Calculus are more challenging than the AP "Lite" classes. Actually, that is probably true for most students. But that is also true for the respective college courses, as well. AP courses are not necessarily supposed to be of equal difficulty. (How on earth would it be possible to make them equally challenging?) Instead, AP courses are designed to replicate the equivalent college courses. So, while AP Government, for instance, may not be as challenging as AP Calculus, that is irrelevant. The real question is whether AP Government is equivalent in difficulty to the respective college course. I won't bore you with the details, but lots of studies show that this is true. I would even argue that courses like AP Government and AP US History are decidedly MORE challenging than the equivalent college courses. (Take a look at the DBQ for this year's AP US History exam, for example. How many college professors assign a question like that to freshmen students?)</p>

<p>By the way, to give you an idea of some of the readings a teacher of "AP Lite" assigns, why don't you check out the following link? Tell me what you think about the difficulty level. (I won't quiz you, though.)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>wd1 -- I think you and Jonri agree more than you disagree -- and given the tenor of this board recently, I for one appreciate the respectful nature of your disagreements! </p>

<p>Looking just at your most recent comment, I have to agree with you. My Sophomore S just took the APUSH exam. Speaking as a History major (yeah, it's been a long time, but still) there is no doubt in my mind that his AP class is more challenging than my introductory U.S. History course in college was -- and at this point in his life he knows more about US History than I did as I was finishing my Freshman year. I know the DBQ has been criticized in many academic circles as being an unsatisfactory substitute for primary source research. My only response is -- do you really think I and the other 150 Freshmen taking U.S. History I and II ever saw a primary source document? Sadly, no (though that may be different these days -- hopefully so).</p>

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<p>Iderochi,</p>

<p>To continue your thought, college students take SEMESTER final exams for US History I and US History II. Typically, the fall semester covers material up to 1865, and the spring semester covers 1865-present. However, the AP US History exam covers ALL of American history. This is far more of a challenge than most college students have in US History. </p>

<p>Again, whether or not this is more challenging than, say, AP Physics, is irrelevant. The question is whether there is an equivalent level of difficulty with the respective college course. I would respectfully argue that AP US History is AT LEAST as challenging as most introductory college courses.</p>

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<p>Regarding Jonri's post # 19:
Quote: "What makes it worse, is that Mathews doesn't care about the scores. Call the course AP US History, have 80% of the kids who bother to take a test get a one or a two and you are a better high school than one that offers regular old US History from which the top half of the class takes the AP test and scores a 4 or 5."</p>

<p>I absolutely agree--sadly. My 3 kids went to a high school in the top 20 on this list. My junior daughter just took AP World History (last year 45 out of the 100 or so kids in APWH scored only a 1 or 2 on the test.) Were they better off than if they had never taken the class? Perhaps. But at least half of those 45 also got a grade of C for the year for the class. I'm not sure THAT helped them! The school just wants kids to take the test (and there is much pressure on kids who take the class but say, nah, I don't wanna take the test.) </p>

<p>And, this absolutely drove me nuts--I assume there are standards for how/when the tests are administered, but her APWH test was held in the afternoon. The start was delayed an hour to wait for the AP Calc kids testing at another location because THEY started their test an hour late. So the kids just sat and waited. A couple kids had to leave the APWH test over an hour early for a school sports game. So tell me, does the school care HOW they do on the test, or just that they take the test to up the school's numbers?</p>

<p>When my oldest started at this high school, the principal said "Have your child try one or two honors classes during their freshman year and only in subjects they enjoy. Then maybe by the time they are seniors, they might want to take one or two AP classes in those same enjoyable subjects." Okay, sounds reasonable. Then, when my youngest enrolled in h.s. (only 5 years later) the same principal said "We really want our incoming freshman to consider taking AP US History, the more AP classes your child takes, the more appealing they will be to colleges." Why the turnaround? Pressure on administrators to increase the AP enrollments. Enrollment numbers, not success of students enrolled in AP courses.</p>

<p>And one of the APWH essays dealt with the impact of the Mongol empire which my D said her class never really discussed. Some of you history majors jump in here and help me out---was that really a fulcrum in the tide of history? Nothing on the test about WWII? Minor backwater in the course of human events, I suppose. </p>

<p>Ok, sorry for the rant, folks, just so relieved I don't have any more kids to help through this process.</p>

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<p>DCMOM -- I'm not going to excuse the lack of a WWII question. But, yes, the Mongol empire had a truly significant impact on world history.</p>

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<p>dcmom,</p>

<p>1) Sounds like the school is "using" the students to pump up their Matthews index score. If that is true, it is unconscionable. An unintended consequence of the index is that far more attention is paid to the NUMBER of students enrolled in AP rather than the QUALITY of AP.</p>

<p>2) It also sounds like there were some major errors in test administration. Why did the calculus students start an hour late? If the school is going to offer a strong AP program, it has a responsibility to provide an organized testing situation.</p>

<p>3) Students should not have left the test an hour early. That sports conflict should have been resolved ahead of time. Either the students should have stayed for the entire test, or they should have previously arranged to take a late exam. (Editorial comment: it drives me absolutely nuts when sports and activities consistently trump academics)</p>

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<p>dcmom:</p>

<p>I totally agree that admin should not be pushing kids into AP that are not ready for it. OTOH, I do agree with Jay's thought that kids who wnat to voluntarily try an ap class should not be held back to protect the school or teacher's pass rate. </p>

<p>At our HS, kids are actually discouraged from ap's....probably explains why our ratio is less than 2. LOL But, the courses are open to anyone who wants to try as long as the receive a B/B+ in the prior year's class.</p>

<p>btw: spring conf championships are a fact of life during the AP testing cycle. A couple of our top stars were able to obtain official approval to take the test late since league tourney was on same day. However, tthe early class being late is another issue, entirely.</p>

<p>Iderochi:</p>

<p>thanks for your post. I was not aware that all SAT tests had been recentered. With all the hoopla around the SAT I, I had assumed that it was the only test with significant changes, particularly to verbal. However, according the CB website, the test changes were based on a sample of 1990 test data, which, I believe, occurred way before the explosion of AP; the recentering occurred in 1995, if I read correctly. Your point may still be spot-on, but not sure about the data is supportive....</p>

<p>Secondly, altho anecdotal evidence only, most kids that I know that have taken more than 5 ap's, have not loaded up on ap lites, bcos it would be of little value in thier apps to the UC, or any other major schools. </p>

<p>The UC's require two years of hard lab science at a minimum: bio, physics, and/or chem, and enviro will not subsitute (but could be fourth year). Similarly, the UC's require at least three years of math (thru AlgII), with a fourth recommended. Anyone trying for Berkekely or UCLA knows that they need more than the minimium, and will take pre-calc/Stat or Calc. The histories follow, as well: US Hist is a state requirement for HS graduation, so top kids take AP. Govt is also a HS graduation requirement - why not take the ap class? AP Art History, another 'survery' course, is perfect for strong, but musically-challenged students, since it fulfills the UC VAPA (visual and performing arts) requirement. IMO such a course is of more 'academic' value than a course like ceramics, which also fulfills the VAPA requirement. </p>

<p>But, you are absolutely correct in that AP courses are viewed differently by adcoms. I think it was Harry Bauld's book that said that he always looked for Chem, Physics, Calc, and Euro, when he reviewed apps.</p>

<p>Personal comment: given the analytical value of econ and stat, I think they should be required for any humanities major, particularly budding journalists, who often times have trouble understanding basic numbers. LOL</p>

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<p>Westerndad1, I think the kids who left for a game assumed they would be finished with the AP in time--it ran over an hour longer than my D expected. I guess the fact that the morning AP started late, and therefore the afternoon AP started late were the causes. </p>

<p>And Bluebayou, I wonder if Jay Mathews had AP Statistics? I guess his statistics are accurate, because they fall within the confines of his definitions. But I agree with an earlier poster who said that perhaps the list should be entitled "The 100 High Schools Which Have the Highest Ap/IB test Enrollment."</p>

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<p>dcmom:</p>

<p>absolutely, but even Jay doesn't want to claim the title that's on the mag -- unfortunately, the editorial team (and sales!) have that privelege.</p>

<p>btw: a more correct title would The xx high schools that take the most app/IB tests. (if a senior takes the class but skips the test, that doesn't show up in the stats)</p>