Top LAC vs Honors program in research university

College Search & Selection
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<p>I have three choices for my college: competitive research university, top LAC, or honors program in research university. If I will be accepted to the first choice, such as UCB or Cornell, I will go there without question; otherwise, the choice is between top LAC, such as Carleton, Reed and Wesleyan, and honors program in somewhat competitive research university, such as UCLA, UW-Madison, and U of Minnesota. </p>

<p>I'm going to major in (molecular or cell) biology and aim to go to the best grad program. I focus on undergrad research experience and want to take many advanced and grad-level courses. The following is my opinion about these choices.</p>

<p>Top LAC</p>

<p>Pros:
Rigorous academics
Excellent PhD production
Focus on research</p>

<p>Cons:
Doesn't specialize on a particular subject
Too few courses for each major
No grad-level course
General tendency of focusing on humanities, which I dislike</p>

<p>Honors program in research university</p>

<p>Pros:
Numerous courses, including many advanced/grad-level courses
Focus on research
Focus on a particular subject </p>

<p>Cons:
Not so rigorous as a whole
High students-faculty ratio </p>

<p>My mind is now leaning toward honors program because it matches me better. However, I don't have many information about each school's honors program, so my image of the program may be exaggerated. If I will go to Carleton, I will probably be able to go to any grad program. However, I suspect that my intellectual curiosity will not be fully satisfied if I will keep staying there until the graduation. Also, if I will transfer from LAC to research university, it will probably give me hard time to adjust for the new environment, especially about research. </p>

<p>If I have some misunderstanding about LACs and/or honors program of research university, please correct it for me. Also, please tell me which type of school suits me better. Thanks.</p>

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<p>If the LAC’s academic offerings are insufficient, shouldn’t you have applied to a different LAC that was a better academic match for your interest?</p>

3

<p>Honors programs at research universities aren’t that special. If you enroll in the honors program, you will be required to take extra honors courses while taking classes for your major. If you prefer going to a small school with more specialized guidance from professors, I would suggest going to a top LAC. If you want to go to a top grad program, LACs do an excellent job of preparing their students for grad schools. I can guarantee you that you won’t be going to a top grad school if you end up at UCB or Cornell because of their competitiveness and their grade deflation in most classes involving premed.</p>

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<p>Come back when you have your acceptances.</p>

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<p>I think you are incorrect to assume all “top” LACs tend to focus on humanities.<br>
Look at the distribution of degrees conferred shown in section J of each school’s Common Data Set file. Twice as many Carleton students major in physical sciences as English Language and Literature/Letters. Of course, the science departments definitely will be smaller at LACs.</p>

<p>Also have a look through the long lists of science thesis topics that Reed College seniors are researching (example: <a href=“http://academic.reed.edu/physics/theses.html”>http://academic.reed.edu/physics/theses.html&lt;/a&gt;). Try to find out if many seniors at the research universities you’re considering are doing comparable work with the same level of faculty oversight. </p>

<p>If you could place out of many low- to intermediate-level science classes at a research university (including the huge classes populated with many pre-med students), then the LAC advantages may be less significant for you. But don’t assume that prestigious graduate research programs automatically translate to excellent instruction and meaningful research opportunities at the undergraduate level. </p>

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<p>I’m with BrownParent on this one. We cannot help you make good decisions with this quality of information about the schools, programs, and YOU. </p>

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<p>Hello, It is the person, not the program, that determines success. The higher the" power" of the research lab, the less likely you will be given freedom to fulfill your own ideas (unless you are very fortunate, as I was, to be in a lab where the director wants all reasonable ideas to be explored). I was fortunate to be in a Nobel laureate’s lab for 3 years where my thoughts and labor were appreciated. My experience as a fellow doing a stint in research in a division of a medical school was less gratifying. When a novel approach to a problem was suggested, I was told by the division director that “I don’t need any new ideas; I need you to work on my ideas”. I left bench research; went into clinical practice ( and do my own invention/research); His ideas dried up. The politics of science is best imagined by visualizing super-egos competing for limited resources (money/promotion/prestige). It ain’t pretty and not every one gets what they deserve. There are a lot of people consumed in the process. I was consumed in my PhD program after I developed a product sought by my director/chairman for 10 years. He took my lab books, told me he never saw me in the lab doing anything related to the project, forbid me from publishing my work, blocked me from forming a committee, and patented my work… He was also chair of the university’s ethics committee. I suggest you become familiar with the contents of “The Art of War” and “The Prince” to successfully navigate the minefields that lie ahead. </p>

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<p>dang, doc! that’s a heckuva horror story. rivals some of the best lab stories I’ve heard. that really stinks. a great cautionary tale, however.</p>

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<p>UCLA isn’t a “somewhat competitive research university.” It’s as selective as Berkeley. It also doesn’t have an honors program, unless you’re referring to Regents.</p>

<p>Also, I’ve heard that biology at Berkeley is very very competitive (I may be wrong). I imagine UCLA is similar (there are a lot of pre-med kids).</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the responses. I understood the vantage of top LACs, and I realized that my anxiety was just imaginary, since Carleton, in fact, offers 64 bio classes and Reed has strong molecular bio & biochem combined program, although the number of bio classes in Reed seems small. As BrownParent said, I think I should later consider the problems which I’m currently having. But after the advice given in this thread and my further research, my mind is now leaning toward LACs. (like harmonic oscillation, ironically lol) By the way, the following is the questions I just had, and I wish somebody would answer them:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>For Carleton and Reed, I have to take at least one class which is unrelated to major to meet the requirement (the order doesn’t matter, though.) For Grinnell and Wesleyan, such requirement is so weak that theoretically I can take as many bio classes as possible. But they are not as good at bio as Carleton and Reed. For research universities like UCLA and UCB, I don’t always have to take humanities for graduation, so this kind of course plan is possible: <a href=“https://www.ibp.ucla.edu/ugrad_major_plan.php”>https://www.ibp.ucla.edu/ugrad_major_plan.php&lt;/a&gt;
However, I still have to take about one class which is unrelated to my major, but that class can be just science and not need to be humanities. Is my understanding all correct? Which of these three types of schools would you recommend me?</p></li>
<li><p>If I feel like to take advanced classes which is not offered by my LAC, how can I study it effectively? Especially, for the schools like Reed and Carleton which have neither grad school nor consortium like Claremont LACs, this problem cannot be solved easily. Should I study that area by myself by just having some help from my teacher occasionally? </p></li>
</ul>

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<p>That UCLA course plan lists several GE courses and some foreign language courses. Here are UCLA’s GE requirements: <a href=“http://www.registrar.ucla.edu/ge/”>http://www.registrar.ucla.edu/ge/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>For Berkeley, the main biology majors are in the College of Letters and Science, whose GE requirements are listed here: <a href=“http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/requirement/summary.html”>http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/requirement/summary.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Reed’s degree requirements, including GE, are listed here: <a href=“The Educational Program - Catalog - Reed College”>http://www.reed.edu/catalog/edu_program.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Carleton’s degree requirements, including GE, are listed here: <a href=“Academic Programs | Academic Catalog | Carleton College”>http://apps.carleton.edu/campus/registrar/catalog/current/programs/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>1° You do realize you’ll only be taking 3 classes per term (or 5 per semester) and that you’ll be choosing among almost a thousand classes, right?
2° How advanced are you right now? if you are very advanced and can take senior-level classes starting sophomore year, can you still find 1 or 2 advanced classes per term? If so, you should be fine. (Be aware that some senior-year classes at Carleton may be 1st semester grad elsewhere).
3° Actually, virtually all college programs in the US will require you to take 1/4th to 1/3rd in general education. According to the link you provided, you’ll be taking one or two non-science/GE class at UCLA every term of Year 1, 2, and 3. As far as I can tell, at UCLA, you’ll be taking 10-12 classes in general education, with only 3 of those related to math/science. At Carleton, likely 12 classes including 3 in math/science (1 per term for 3 years?). The strength of this program is considered as important as the number of advanced classes you take. That’s why at colleges like CalTech or MIT nobody skimps on general education.
3° You can always try and take more advanced classes at the UMN over the summer, not sure how it’d work though. In most cases anyway you WILL be studying by yourself with a professor’s guidance, typically your senior year, conducting your own reasearch or working on a project. In addition, Carleton is part of the Mayo Scholars program, so you could be conducting research at the Mayo Clinic Summer after your Sophomore or Junior year, doing very advanced work.</p>

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<p>deleted double post</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>The best known exceptions include Brown, Amherst, and Evergreen State, where GE requirements are minimal to none.</p>

<p>However, GE requirements do vary from school to school, and often can be overlapped with one’s major requirements (e.g. a biology major won’t have to take additional biology or chemistry courses for GE purposes, since s/he will take plenty of those courses for his/her major).</p>

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<p>^They’re still quite rare, probably two handful of schools out of 2,500.</p>

<p>OP was asking specifically about non-science GE’s and even where there aren’t any/many requirements, a class in English/Writing/First Year Seminar or another form of an introduction to college writing and research is typically required. Reed has a rigorous set of classes, with the year-long humanities class that focuses on the classics, Carleton has more alternatives, and even UCLA seems to have about 10 classes of GE outside of science.
In short, OP can’t just take one or two classes for GE and the rest be biology classes at the colleges s/he listed.</p>

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<p>^ Unlike other LACs, Wesleyan has PhD programs, and they are only in the sciences (bio, chem, physics, biochem, molecular biology), math, CS, and music.</p>

<p>According to NSF statistics, from 2006-2011 Wesleyan alumni earned 69 PhDs in biology (more than any other LAC but Carleton, whose alumni earned 79).</p>

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<p>It seems that I had a terrible misconception. I thought Wesleyan had only PhD programs related to social science. Then, Wesleyan can be another strong choice for me. Also, the fact that its PhD program mostly consists of biology sounds pretty nice to me. Thanks. </p>