Top Law Schools w/ No GPA?!?!

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>A friend at Brown -- very smart, charismatic, etc -- has taken every class thus far at college satisfactory/no credit and will graduate a five year program with two degrees (i.e. BA/BS) in a couple of years. That person chose to take every class under satisfactory/no credit because he/she doesn't believe in grades. That person has a very impressive resume, will probably have test scores in 170s, and may work for a couple of years after graduating.</p>

<p>Think top law schools are still feasible w/out a GPA? IMO it is a big risk, but makes him/her somewhat unique.</p>

2

<p>it's not impossible--I know Hampshire (which gives evaluations instead of grades unless you request otherwise) sends folks to law school. But I imagine it is a hurdle and your friend will need LSAT scores and professor recommendations that really back up the idea that she's a great student and not a lazy one.</p>

3

<p>New College of Florida gives no grades at all. Instead, students receive written narrative evaluations in paragraph form.</p>

<p>The total lack of grades at New College does not seem to impair its students from admission to top law schools. Nearly two-thirds of New College graduates go on to law school, medical school, or graduate school.</p>

<p>The Wall Street Journal recently ranked New College as the nation’s #2 public university for sending graduates to elite law, medical and business schools.</p>

<p>Having said all that, law school admissions officers are accustomed to evaluating New College graduates' applications with their narrative evaluations instead of grades. It seems doubtful that admissions officers would look the same at a graduate, even from a prestigious school like Brown, who deliberately chose not to receive grades.</p>

<p>But, with as many law schools as there are in the country, doubtless a Brown graduate whose LSAT is high enough will find a welcoming law school somewhere, all "satisfactory/no credit" courses notwithstanding.</p>

4

<p>I do believe that there is a difference, though, between having no GPA from a school that either does not give grades or does not calculate a GPA and having no GPA where a student made a conscientious decision not have classes graded or otherwise not to have a GPA. </p>

<p>The student without a GPA from Brown will likely have to write one heck of a personal statement and have some outstanding recommendations from professors to balance the choice of "satisfactory/no credit" grades.</p>

5

<p>There's a history of people doing this at Brown, I gave it a thought before deciding against it. There's a story of someone doing this and getting into Harvard med, which given the nature of the pre-med track, would seem to require specific course grades more than elite law schools. Also, the student might be getting written course evaluations from each professor. It's certainly a risk, but will make him/her stand out, and as Senior's Dad said, somebody will bite.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
There's a story of someone doing this and getting into Harvard med, which given the nature of the pre-med track, would seem to require specific course grades more than elite law schools.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It seems to me that you guys are forgetting that professors still do keep track of the student's performance; they need to asses how well a student does in order to "pass" them. The student may not get a grade on her transcripts; she may not even know exactly how well she did in the class; the professor, however, will know as she would have to measure the student's progress. IF the student is an "A student" or an "exceptional student", the professor can easily address this in a letter of recommendation.</p>

<p>That said, it would take a very special type of student to make this work. </p>

<p>Additionally, given the specialized nature of the MCAT (to a point largely dependent on pre-med coursework), your overall GPA (and to an extent even your science GPA) would be, in fact, much less relevant than you'd like to think, if you have a high MCAT and strong letters by science professors--i.e. if a chemistry professor who taught you both the general and o.chem sequences writes a letter saying that you are the best student they have had in their career, you are bound to do well. Also, do not forget that many schools have pre-med committee; these committees write a comprehensive letter of recommendation, which includes input from several of your professors, etc. One does not have the same opportunity (to submit a comprehensive letter from a committee) for law school; a strong committee letter would likely offset doubts about taking classes pass/fail.</p>

<p>I am not recommending that pre-meds go crazy and take classes pass-fail. But, given the way the systems appear to be designed/work, they may in fact do it more safely than those who aspire to attend a top law school. </p>

<p>I happened to know a lawyer who attended The Evergreen State College in Washington State (one of those 'progressive' schools that gives narrative evaluations instead of traditional grades) and then went to and graduated from HLS. She herself admitted that she had done two years at the University of Washington, where she received straight As, before getting her degree at Evergreen. </p>

<p>I also know of several well-known law school admissions consultants that won't take clients from schools such as Evergreen or Hampshire, as it is just an uphill, unnecessary, battle to place those students at top schools. Impossible? No; a lot of unnecessary extra work and effort? Yes. Law schools are conservative institutions.</p>

7

<p>"Think top law schools are still feasible w/out a GPA? IMO it is a big risk, but makes him/her somewhat unique."</p>

<p>No. They can't really compare this person to other candidates, and since it was completely optional to take classes as credit/no credit, they will fault the applicant rather than the school. As others have said, if it was a school thing, then it's a different story (and still and uphill battle).</p>

<p>Honestly, if this person was really "very smart" they wouldn't have done such a stupid thing.</p>

8

<p>I don't know why I asked this question on CC when I was going to get answers in the naive vein of thetruthcomesout: "Honestly, if this person was really "very smart" they wouldn't have done such a stupid thing." </p>

<p>Geez! What a dumb comment! Apparently you can't be smart and not believe in grades! That sounds like the hyperobsessed, "asian" focus on grades over knowledge that colleges and grad schools hate.</p>

<p>This is a matter of principle, not laziness: some people fundamentally don't believe in a grades system because it encourages cheating, ruthless competition, etc. Brown is a very alternative culture, and students there who value "learning for learning's sake" may choose to take no grades even if they could do really well. Moreover, grades are replaced with comments from teachers in each class.</p>

<p>I think that you're shortchanging the applicant:</p>

<p>Law schools themselves have deemphasized grades (at least while you're there). Yale Law, for instance, has a largely pass-fail grading system, and this has since been adopted elsewhere.</p>

<p>I doubt a top law school will not bite for a student with a high 170s or 180, incredible internships, great essays, etc merely b/c the student was BOLD/MATURE/COMFORTABLE enough not to take grades. Especially if this student can justify this choice compellingly, and also has work experience etc.</p>

<p>Getting near a 4.0 at schools besides the top few is so easy that it means little anyway. That is why LSAT >> GPA. Maybe I'm wrong, but if the applicant gets into HLS, YLS, etc... he/she will be the one laughing at you.</p>

9

<p>I agree that some of these answers are somewhat baseless and don't appreciate aspects of the Brown curriculum. I don't know that bringing race into it is really necessary, but it seems like you already knew the answer to your "question"...</p>

10

<p>Op, please delete the word "asian" from my previous post. I didn't mean it in a racial sense at all, but it came out the wrong way. My apologies.</p>

11

<p>If it was a matter of principle, IMO they should have stuck with a school that doesn't do grades. I don't see why he/she couldn't simply take classes without looking/worrying about his/her grades, unless he knew he wasn't smart enough/wouldn't work hard enough to be at the top. </p>

<p>Personally, I'm not a fan of the current grading system... but I actually put effort into changing it at my UG rather than taking the elitist "opt-out" view and doing nothing about it. Opting-out when you plan on going to law school and know that GPA is a major consideration is just short-sighted and stupid.</p>

<p>I'll admit that I'm not familiar with Brown's curriculum, but the way it was presented here is that the standard is that classes are graded on a GPA scale, but you have the option to take it as pass/fail. If that's the case, I stand by what I said (especially if you are still getting graded on individual assignments).</p>

<p>You came here and asked for opinions on a situation--- dont get all ****ed off b/c you don't agree.</p>

12

<p>
[quote]
Honestly, if this person was really "very smart" they wouldn't have done such a stupid thing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>OP, relax. That's only his/her opinion. You see, 'stupid' like 'beauty', is in the eye of the beholder. And opinions regarding 'stupidity' and 'beauty' tend to be the most subjective of all; these opinions are generally formed on the basis of either personal preference (which includes convenience of whoever is passing judgment) or misguided naivete (and oft-times ignorance). The opinion above seems to fit the latter rather well. </p>

<p>So... as you can see, thetruthcomesout simply gave his/her opinion. That's all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. So, what you have to ask yourself is 'why would you care about thetruthcomesout opinion'? I see no reason really.</p>

<p>Possible objection: well, won't admission officers think the same way? Unlikely. You see, unlike the truthcomesout, admission officers know about Brown's curriculum, for example. They are less ignorant, and usually, like mature and educated people, they refrain from giving out ignorant opinions.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
This is a matter of principle, not laziness: some people fundamentally don't believe in a grades system because it encourages cheating, ruthless competition, etc. Brown is a very alternative culture, and students there who value "learning for learning's sake" may choose to take no grades even if they could do really well.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If these are your friend's beliefs, law school might not be the right place for him. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Law schools themselves have deemphasized grades (at least while you're there). Yale Law, for instance, has a largely pass-fail grading system, and this has since been adopted elsewhere.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Um... most law schools are extremely competitive and grade on a bell curve. Grades (as they translate to class rank) are important because they determine your employment prospects. </p>

<p>
[quote]
I doubt a top law school will not bite for a student with a high 170s or 180, incredible internships, great essays, etc merely b/c the student was BOLD/MATURE/COMFORTABLE enough not to take grades.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why did you even start this thread?</p>

<p>You make pretty bold assumptions about how adcoms will react to your "friend's" narrative transcript. It's more likely that someone looking at his application will think he's a lazy hippie who smoked pot for four years and didn't feel like doing the work to get good grades.</p>

<p>Also, you shouldn't assume your "friend" will receive a 170+ on the LSAT. I know plenty of "very smart" people who didn't.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A friend at Brown -- very smart, charismatic, etc -- has taken every class thus far at college satisfactory/no credit and will graduate a five year program with two degrees (i.e. BA/BS) in a couple of years.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your "friend" should start taking classes for letter grades now, so when he applies adcoms will have a numeric GPA that indicates his academic abilities and contextualizes the narrative evaluations that comprise the majority of his transcript. If he pulls a 3.7+ for a couple of semesters, good narrative evaluations will carry more weight than they would have if he had no GPA at all.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
If these are your friend's beliefs, law school might not be the right place for him.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>...really? Why?</p>

15

<p>I'm surprised that someone who doesn't believe in grading students would even subscribe to the notion that some law schools are inherently better than others.</p>