Top of Class Lowly Law School vs. Bottom of Class Top Law School

Graduate School Law School
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<p>Wow, this stuff is super scary to me…</p>

<p>Dang…it’s depressing somewhat. </p>

<p>Why don’t law firms reduce hours for some workers (I’m sure many would prefer a 60 hour work week instead of an 80-100 hour one that I hear about) and hire more to fill in the extra needed hours? …I actually think working less gives your mind and body time to heal and recuperate and come back stronger and be more productive. Being overworked doesn’t produce greatness. </p>

<p>Why not hire more people and have current employers work a few less hours/week…the subtraction of a little salary in return for more personal time would seem awesome and make people more happy in the long run. </p>

<p>Where can a law school hopeful find out more about this type of info. you guys are talking about??? It’s depressing news, but stuff I’d want to know about to prepare myself for the job market in law. </p>

<p>Are there industry publications …like one or two that are the gold standard for legal news?</p>

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<p>

That’s exactly the opposite of how law firms work. In order to be considered to be performing at a satisfactory level, an attorney must bill a certain amount of hours. Note the word “bill” which is not the same as “work.” It is upon associate billable hours that law firms are profitable. Only the highest billers will continue on the partnership track, which should be considered an upscale game of Survivor, and they would never, ever, ever, ever give away billable hours. In slow times, people fight for billables because they know that’s the only way to partnership. Firms don’t want to hire more people, that involves benefits and increased support staff. Many firms are only hiring as permanent associates the grads at the top of the heap and using temp attorneys and “staff” attorneys to do the grunt work. Young attorneys do not have personal time or personal lives. That’s not part of the deal and if you are looking for a work-life balance, in this day and age, law is probably not for you, unless you are the child of a family that owns its own law practice. Also, law is a business. Personal happiness is for the people who own the firms. Not the employees at any level. The employees get compensated very, very well and associates hope to join the rank of owners someday. Most won’t, of course, and will find themselves unemployed at year eight, but some get corporate or government jobs at that point and can have a work-life balance on much less money.</p>

<p>Scope out abovetthelaw.com for the real, albeit sarcastic, story.</p>

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<p>1.) Why are the unemployed at year eight? </p>

<p>2.) What are these part-time and temp attorneys I’m hearing about? … Is that similar to an adjunct professor? </p>

<p>The more I hear the more depressing it sounds!!!</p>

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<p>

Large and medium sized law firms are generally built on an “up or out” model. What hapens is that a class of lawyers is hired every fall (the number hired depends on the size of the firm) and every year they are all evaluated and some are told that they will not make partner at that firm and have X months to find another option. By year 8, which is often the partnership year, there will only be a couple of people left from that class at the very most. The more senior you are the more difficult it is to find another job and if you come to a vote and aren’t elected to the partnership it is staggeringly difficult.</p>

<p>Temp attorneys are exactly like all temps. Hired for a period of time with no benefits, no security and paid an hourly rate. Unemployed at the end of that period. Staff attorneys can be permanent employes of a firm, but they are more like clerks tha lawyers and aren’t on the partnership track, don’t earn top money, and have no career path.</p>

<p>It is depressing. Terrible time to become a lawyer if you aren’t independently wealthy or guaranteed a job.</p>

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<p>Yeah, that sounds like professorship tenure…you have approx. six years to publish something worthy of tenure at your school. …otherwise, you are given a one year notice to seek employment elsewhere. </p>

<p>I didn’t know law was that way too. </p>

<p>I have a question, however. You said that these new hires are given ONE year to do well or else find a job? …Was that a typo? I wasn’t sure, b/c you then go on to say that at year eight these people are told whether or not they can make partner. </p>

<p>…And lastly…why would it be tough to be a “higher up” lawyer who doesn’t make partner? …Wouldn’t it be easier to find a job having at least made it that high? It’s better than the person who got dumped after one year or …two years, right? That person who never even made it to year eight would seem much more suspect on the market, no?</p>

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<p>It’s not like professorship, where you have the six years and you’re generally allowed to use it. Each year, if you’re at the bottom of the pile, you get kicked out. So each year, you have to engage in a competition to get the most billable hours.</p>

<p>The problem with being a higher up lawyer is that you’ll be used to a higher salary, and you’ll be used to doing more interesting stuff than entry-level associate work. If you get bumped back down the ladder and told to work your way up again, there’s a pretty serious risk of you just burning out completely; the modern firm model does assume that some people will burn out, but that doesn’t mean they want to go out of their way to hire people who will. (And it’s not like there’s a shortage of new graduates who would like to be first-year associates…)</p>

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<p>I see…</p>

<p>So here’s a question…why can’t all the new hires stay if they’re all doing well? What if the person billing the least hours does a good job, but simply doesn’t bill as much as the others? </p>

<p>Also, what’s up with billing hours? …Do the lawyers have to sort of be entreprenuers and go out and find clients to work with and bill? Or do clients just walk right in and the lawyers have stuff to do and it’s just a matter of how much or how fast they do it? …</p>

<p>I’m not familiar with this billing scenario of law, lol. :slight_smile: But good to find out NOW early on! Thanks!!</p>

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<p>According to one big law firm’s website, only TEN people made partners this year. This is a firm with 23 offices worldwide. What happens to all those year-eight associates who didn’t make partner? What other options do they have if they don’t leave the firm?</p>

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<p>You can try to go in-house with a corporation, which might be your best bet if biglaw had given you work that might be useful at a corporation. If biglaw assigned you to work only with some dead-end project (think asbestos litigation) or in a narrow field, you may not be as marketable as others with different skill sets.</p>

<p>You can try a lateral move to a mid-sized firm, although this is likely to result in a pay drop. This time the competition is different. Instead of competing solely on grades and legal writing skills, you could be competing for a job with someone who had spent the last 8 years doing trial work, building a small practice of their own, etc. </p>

<p>You can try moving into a teaching job if your credentials were stellar (and try to convince people that you’re doing it because you were burned out, vs. doing it because you suddenly discovered that you wanted to enlighten young minds instead of making a lot of money as a partner). </p>

<p>You might be “lucky” enough to be told that you can continue with the firm as a paid employee who isn’t on partnership track. Recently I’ve met two lawyers who were given the title “of Counsel.” They told me that they’ve were advised that they will not be made partner. </p>

<p>You might be told you could work another year and try again, although I’ve heard this is rare.</p>

<p>You can try for those nonlegal or government jobs along with everyone else. As with teaching, you can tell people that you’re either burned out or that this was part of some long-term plan that you always intended to do on your way to a bright future.</p>

<p>And yes, all of the rest of us know that if you have biglaw on your resume but you’re not a partner at that firm, that you didn’t make the cut.</p>

<p>Brownug: It doesn’t matter if you’re just a good employee. Everyone is presumably a good employee. Billable hours will depend on the practice group, whether others in the practice group are hustling for hours better, if the partner you work with has power, etc. Bringing in clients is always a good thing, if you can manage to find clients who will pay biglaw rates and a partner doesn’t strip the client from you. I’m willing to bet that the 10 who made partner were either capable of bringing in clients, were somehow “connected” to important people, or had written articles or otherwise raised the profile of the firm.</p>

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<p>

What I said was that EVERY YEAR attorneys are evaulated and a number are asked to find other positions. The total could start as 12 or 30 or whatever in a class. The numbers thin each year. By partnership year, they all have to be up or out.</p>

<p>

No, exactly the opposite. Senior lawyers make much more money and find it hard to make do on so much less. Also, there are fewer senior positions than junior. Mid-level attorneys, from years 3-5 are most desirable to new employers because they are well trained but not too expensive.</p>

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<p>

Billing is the measure of doing a good job. Hours are the product produced by a law firm. By definition, someone can’t be doing a good job if she is not billing. The tthing to understand is that partners are owners and they all have a cut of the pie. They want to limit the number of pieces to keep each larger. If someone doesn’t contrbute to the size of the pie, they will not be given a piece. Law firm lawyers are all entrepreneurs. Must “make rain” which is the way of saying generate billing.</p>

<p>

Some firms can start with a class of several hundred members and ultimately make only a handful of partners. Firms are up or out models, with very rare exceptions, and as an attorney climbs the ladder, each year he is assessed to answer the question “is this person on track to be admitted to the partnership here?” Generally the answer is no and those who receive that answer must leave. Usually one won’t come to a vote if there isn’t a good chance of admittance to the partnership, but if that person’s partnership year arrives and the answer is no, he must leave. There are no other options.</p>

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<p>First, let me say this thread and the info. in it has been once again invaluable. I guess I’m on the ignorant side of so much of this having only looked at law from the outside via movies, media, and popular culture. The work realities are really quite different from what I had imagined. </p>

<p>On the bright side, I should have time to learn on this before applying to and attending law school (if that’s what I choose). A quick question about all of this so that you folks may not have to write so much to inform someone like me who is ignorant (unless you guys don’t mind, heh heh), lol, is to ask what books or magazines or other …resources can people get this sort of ostensibly insider information. </p>

<p>Some of the details you guys have given I just don’t find elsewhere…I know there are books on what law school is LIKE…and what lawyers do…but some of the more nuanced things like people stealing billing hours away…how you’re viewed if you fail to make partner …how you stack up against others…etc. etc. that you guys have written is really interesting to me. I mean…I don’t want to focus on that stuff primarily, as I still wish to pursue my studies and do the best I can in that area…but just being aware of some of those realities and difficulties does help in terms of perspective and having various strategies in place to prepare for those potential situations. </p>

<p>I only know of a few lawyers, who are older than me, but who are usually very busy and don’t have time to inform me of these things (plus, they’re mostly friends of friends). …Any really good books or resources you guys know of that sort of give this info. you guys are talking about…like the realities of the legal field and the obstacles of a legal career, etc.? I already am reading books on what lawyers do and how to prepare for law school, etc. …but this other stuff I haven’t learned much about. </p>

<p>QUOTING neonzeus:
Brownug: It doesn’t matter if you’re just a good employee. Everyone is presumably a good employee. Billable hours will depend on the practice group, whether others in the practice group are hustling for hours better, if the partner you work with has power, etc. Bringing in clients is always a good thing, if you can manage to find clients who will pay biglaw rates and a partner doesn’t strip the client from you. I’m willing to bet that the 10 who made partner were either capable of bringing in clients, were somehow “connected” to important people, or had written articles or otherwise raised the profile of the firm.
(p.s. how do you guys quote here at CC?)</p>

<p>Two questions: </p>

<p>1.) How does one “hustle” for better billing hours at a firm? Are cases just not assigned to you? Do you have to go out and attract clients (like a salesman)? </p>

<p>Related: Do government positions require this sort of billing quota (if that’s what it is)? </p>

<p>2.) When you say writing articles in that last sentence…what are you talking about? Like an article in a legal academic journal (like what professors may do)? Are articles in various industry or even popular magazines? So very interesting…I never heard of these things.</p>

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<p>p.s. I wish I could “hire” you guys as a personal tutor for a week or two, lol, to ask a bazillion questions!!! Wow…such great info. The other forum my friend told me to visit called Top Law Schools really stinks. They always get into fights there and people start trying to put others down and they trash talk schools or trash talk this type of law or that type of region, etc. It’s like a school yard filled with high schoolers with that I need to prove myself immaturity…very rarely do I get useful info. like this. …Thanks you guys. This place is awesome, YAY!</p>

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<p>One more question while I’m at it, lol…or until you guys get tired of answering…Hey, don’t you guys have law jobs you have to get to??? :slight_smile: </p>

<p>But just curious…when academic professors get tenure they can more or less stay in that position for a lifetime - assuming they don’t commit a crime or something very detrimental to their career like that - and actually don’t even have to put out as much work or even as good of work as they did to attain tenure…they can sort of just sit there forever (this is more or less what my professor told me during office hours). </p>

<p>Is there a parallel here with partnership in a law firm? Once you make partner…do you have to keep working just as hard…or even harder? Or is it like the tenured professor who can more or less do what he wants and no one can fire him? I’ve heard of some criticize tenured professors who no longer work as hard, b/c they know they can never be fired.</p>

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<p>

First of all, one is only ignorant if he isn’t interested in receiving information. That is not you at all. You are in great shape for when you’re ready to go to law school.</p>

<p>Generally speaking, a client (company, individual,government, whoever is paying the bill) will have a relationship with a partner at a firm. That partner will supervise the legal services provided to that client. The partner may bill Client X anywhere from $600 to $1000 per hour for his advice. The nuts and bolts work will be done by associates of the partner on an assigned basis. They will bill anywhere from $300 to $600 per hour (just a general range) and the bulk of the bill is comprised of associate time. Paralegals and other professionals bill lower rates and add to the bills. For a large corporate client the bill can run into the six figures every month. Or even more. Law firms are generally run on a bill for service model and can only stay afloat if clients are paying bills for more than the
cost to run the firm.</p>

<p>A lot of lawyers write articles. It’s a way of advertising expertise. If you look at The New York Law Journal, you will often see articles with two or more authors. The top name is usually the partner and the other name(s) are associates.</p>

<p>In prior decades when a person “made partner” it was a lifetime, collegial commitment. Not the case anymore. It’s all about current billing because partner draws (salaries) have gotten so huge. When a person becomes a partner, he or she has to make a capital contribution, which can run into the millions of dollars, as operating capital for that firm. He then has to generally pay back a loan for that money, as well as continue to work hard to generate the billings needed to keep the firm afloat and justify his draw. </p>

<p>It doesn’t get easier.</p>

<p>You always have the option of opening your own firm. Some of the happiest lawyers I’ve ever known were people who had small, real estate or estate practices that generated a good income without the stress. They were in complete control, were respected members of their communities, and lived well.</p>

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<p>If you take anything away from this discussion, I hope it is that six figure debt for law school is very, very risky and in this economy and with the changes to the legal field from top to bottom, the only people who should take that risk without serious deliberationare people who can comfortably pay for law school without debt, who are famous or connected in some way,or who have a job guaranteed to them upon graduation.</p>

<p>Even the brightest people from the best law firms face no sure thing of employment because there might be lots of connected people in your year leaving you out in the cold. I wish I could introduce all of the “don’t you know how smart I am?” law students to the equally smart, credentialed law grads working as temps and watching their dreams , their youth, and their futures be lost to them becaus of that burden of debt. I always think it’s even sadder because most of these temps who cross my path were top grads of top undergrad schools who could have had lucrative, satsfying careers in other fields and be well on the way to marriage, parenthood, home ownership and a great life that is permanently out of reach because of the choice to atttend law school.</p>

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<p>I think of ignorance in the most basic sense as lacking knowledge, which may or may not involve culpability or fault on the part of the person without knowledge. Whereas I consider the person who is too lazy or irresponsible to go and be informed as foolish! A FOOL is someone I try very hard not to be! :slight_smile: Actually…someone I respect taught me that. heh heh.</p>

<p>So many things ran through my mind when reading your posts above…I’ll have to wait until I’ve processed things more before responding, but again thank you very very much. </p>

<p>I consider this like free money…like silver or gold falling from the sky!!! I love wisdom and insight!!!</p>

<p>Next step: put all these kernels of wisdom and information into a notebook to store with me and think about every now and then as I prepare. WOOT!</p>

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<p>I know someone who is at a top firm who worked as a clown (I swear) after college, saved for five years before going to law school, and continued to work as a clown on weekends and summers through law school. Graduated with very little debt, did a Federal clerkship (that’s an internship wih a federal judge and is pretty much a golden ticket to be hired at top law firms – they have separate hiring tracks for clerks, along with signing bonuses in the range of $25,000) and was one of the most highly recruited attorneys in his year. Of course he had great grades, but he had a great story to discuss in interviews and is the most incredibly personable guy.</p>

<p>Older recruits who have done something interesting or developed expertise between college and law school can be very sought after.</p>

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<p>I have posted this message many times before, but think long and hard about going to law school.</p>

<p>I base that advice not only on my own experience, but also on the experiences of countless friends and co-workers.</p>

<p>There are a myriad of posts on CC to that effect.</p>

<p>Consider this advice no different than if I saw you about ready to step in front of a taxi cab.</p>

<p>You would want me to pull you away, right?</p>

<p>I could write pages and pages on this subject, but others on CC have already done so.</p>

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<p>lol. Hey, what an amazing story!</p>

<p>The key to that story for me was the good grades. :slight_smile: I’m guessing that bad or mediocre grades + clown story = epic interview fail?? lol </p>

<p>…Or I could be wrong too! You mentioned that he was very affable. I love interesting stories too…but wonder if they can be a little toooo weird sometimes for an interview? Having a great personality, however, is a huge one I think. I love being around someone who is very personable. But all those traits and experiences without the good grades? …I’m guessing not so good?</p>

<p>But actually…I like how the clown saved up a lot and had very little debt after graduating. I’ve been reading up on that - the debt stuff. It’s definitely possible. And I would think that it would make one’s life and options so much more open after LS. A friend told me that law school can be a death trap for many who don’t do well and/or dislike law (e.g. those who went into it for the money), b/c with 150K debt the only job that the person can get that would allow them to repay their LS loans is doing law! And if you hate the job, you’ll bbe stuck doing it most likely for a while to repay your debt. Or if you aren’t good at it, then you may be in even bigger trouble, b/c you have debt and may not find a job that can reasonably pay it back over X number of years to really enjoy your life. He really has warned that debt can be the biggest bane of a law school grad’s existence and that if not for the huge debt that is common that it would actually not be so bad at all (as people could just attend and go into another field if they dislike or were not good at law…and not have to worry about their loans). </p>

<p>I’m definitely going to try very hard if I do apply and attend LS to have as little debt as strategically possible. I know that that’s probably the absolute biggest negative of going to law school. If only not for the debt… …</p>

<p>I’m now so curious about clowns lol…I wonder how much pay a clown can make, heh heh. I’ve heard that magicians can make a lot (hundreds of dollars or even thousands) for a few hours of performing (e.g. at a private b-day party or at a corporate event as entertainment).</p>