Top of Class Lowly Law School vs. Bottom of Class Top Law School

Graduate School Law School
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<p>

It’s not the basis for grooming young lawyers. It’s the hiring path. If you don’t get a summer associate position or become a clerk, you don’t get hired as a new lawyer. The interviewing and weeding process is done FOR summer associate positions. If you get one, unless you are a drunken slob or a thief being hired as a summer associate puts you in that year’s hiring class. You will come back as a permanent associate either the fall after you graduate OR the fall after you complete a clerkship. You will be in that class until you become a partner or leave the firm. You will compete with only those people for partnership and bonuses. Everything in law firms is separated out by class.</p>

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<p>Oh. Gotcha. Then man…the latest IL’s are in trouble, because I read the summer associate positions were rare and the market was hit hard. </p>

<p>I have a question then. A girl I know completed her first year in IL and she lists Judicial Intern for her Linkedin experience. It says something like something something Circuit Court Judician Intern. Is that the same as a clerkship? It sounds weaker, but I don’t know. I just know that when I talked to her right before law school that she seemed really unprepared. I wonder how she’s doing, but am not close friends, lol. Also, does EVERYONE get a summer gig?..Are the only people who fail to get a summer gig those who are like literally bottom of their class?</p>

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<p>No, it’s not a clerkship. A clerkship is a paid, competitive position. The legal equivalent of a golden ticket. Anyone can show up and intern for someone who is willing to take on another body. But a clerkship is a serious matter.</p>

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<p>Although the real problem comes during the Partnership Adventure, wherein your ability to Continue With The Firm is determined based on whether your Book of Business is sufficient, say in the seven figure range, such that you have a Future With the Firm.</p>

<p>Generally, you can expect to have your Future With the Firm evaluated on a periodic basis.</p>

<p>One of my friends was recently departnered and one was thrown onto the attorney scrapheap. There’s nothing like a good departnering to boost morale.</p>

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<p>Jjjjjjjjust how tough is it to stay at a big law firm? </p>

<p>Suppose one makes it to big law (whether being in the top half of their T14 class or top 5% of a non-T14), then how tough is it? </p>

<p>I hear you guys saying that it’s another fight all over again (this time in competition with your peers). But how tough is the competition then? </p>

<p>I hear something about billable hours. I know part of that was defined earlier, but how/why can’t people get these billable hours? Are you fighting others to get them? Do you have to recruit clients to get those hours? Is it determined by how fast you work? Does your skill matter? </p>

<p>What other criteria will determine whether or not you can stay in big law? Personality? Likability? Connections? </p>

<p>What’s the attritution rate? Say 10 people make it into a big law first year class? Will 5 stay? </p>

<p>THANKSSSSS this info. is invaluable to me!!!</p>

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<p>Jonlaw you make a good point. In the early years of my career, a partnership was a lifetime commitment. Not the case anymore.</p>

<p>Brownug, if a class has say 12 people (that’s a small class) perhaps one person will be elevated in a given year. Sometimes none. In a larger class, there might be 3 or four left at most. It is very hard to make partner.</p>

<p>Billable hours refers to the amount of time an attorney devotes to a particular task that a client will pay. He or she is assigned a task and completes it. The client will receive a bill for that amount and at some point, hopefully, will pay it. If the work inefficient, some of the hours will be written off, which is not good for the associate.</p>

<p>Generally the most important criteria is a book of business. After that, personal fit and professional skill. Many frms have partners who don’t have business of their own but have carved out area of experitise in ethics or associate supervision or representing the firm in its legal issues.</p>

<p>Associates are reviewed annually and some are toldevery year that they have no future. I’m serious. Think of it as a game of Survivor where someone is voted off the island every week and one is left standing.</p>

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<p>At my old firm, I got reviews every six months, which got pretty old, pretty quickly. Granted, I went to a small firm with only about 100 lawyers and I only had to do the every six month thing for several years, at which point it went to annual reviews. Two of the people I was a summer associate with got tossed out within the first few years.</p>

<p>Apparently some firms went to every three month reviews during the recent recession.</p>

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<p>Two quick questions (p.s. …I’m printing out everyone’s responses and putting them into a binder, lol…so I really appreciate it!!!): </p>

<p>I.) Attrition in Big Law - When you say that out of a “class of 10” that maybe one will survive (scary!), that’s after the first year? Or do you mean 1 will survive to partner out of 10 over many years. And the 9 that don’t survive will be forced to leave anywhere from after year 1 to year 3…to year 5, etc. </p>

<p>IF, it’s 1 out of 10 for the first year (very very scary!!!..those odds are realllly bad, if so), then what happens to the -SURVIVOR- during his second year? At that point, this person’s first year class will have disappeared (the 9 who got the axe)…so is he or she now just competing with him/herself? Trying to do the best he/she can to meet those billing hours? </p>

<p>OR, is that survivor out of the class of 10 now competing against OTHER survivors who may be from classes above him? E.g., </p>

<p>Survivor of 1999 class, Survivor of 2001 class, Survivor or 2003 class…etc. These people if they’re still at the big law firm, will the new survivor have to be up against them? Or just up against himself to do well? </p>

<p>It sounded almost sadistic, lol, the way it’s been described. Like trying to win The Hunger Games ( have you guys seen the movie yet?)!!!</p>

<p>II.) “Small,” “Mid-Size,” & “Big-Law” Distinctions and Prospects</p>

<p>Ok…I was also reading from a different forum (one I don’t like actually, because people there get into fights alot) about these distinctions between firm sizes and job prospects. But, I also re-read everyone’s comments earlier in this thread when saving and printing and there’s some overlap. </p>

<p>Here’s what I want to know/verify!!! Is this accurate?:</p>

<p>****Small Firm = 1 or 2 people. Or at most a handful…like 5-10? These firms are local ones capitalizing on local clients by people with ties to the community and are trusted by the community. Won’t make enormous money necessarily, but can make a decent living (maybe $50-60K/year??) and is OPEN to ALL lawyers? </p>

<p>***Mid-Size Firm = 20-50-ish people? …or more like 100-200 people???<br>
These are not the biggest firms and are also local. They have good and experienced lawyers, but can’t compete with the big law firms in terms of prestige, power, and clients. You will earn less…about $75K-$135K-ish??? These mid-size firms are open to people WITH EXPERIENCE. That’s what people said in another forum. They said that if you “flunk out” of big law, then you can sometimes goto a mid-size firm. </p>

<p>But, they said that if you graduate from law school that you CAN’T goto a mid-size. You can only goto either solo/small practice OR big law (if you’re good enough), but NOT mid-size. They said the reason is that mid-size firms like to hire people with at least 3-5 years of experience. Furthermore, one can make a stable living at mid-size firms and don’t have as much pressure as big law…true? </p>

<p>***Big Law/Large Firms = 200+ people (is this correct???)
These are the big boys everyone is talking about here, right? THESE are the firms that recruit the best of the best ONLY out of law school (you can’t go there from solo practice or mid-size firms) and the sadist game of Survivor or Hunger Games starts once you get there, LOL??? :)</p>

<p>We’ve already discussed what happens in terms of career trajectory here, so no need to repeat. BUT, there does seem like a silver lining, no? </p>

<p>Let’s say you go to a big boy firm and you work 2-3 years. If your starting salary is $150K and you get raises each year…After say 3 years, then you’ll have actually been able to save up A LOT!!! Not necessarily the full $150K to pay back school loans. But maybe you would have earned/saved enough to pay back $80K or so? If that leaves you with like 50-60K left in debt…that’s not TOO bad right? I think I’ve heard of undergrads with almost that much…in the $30-40K range. </p>

<p>And now with big law experience, you can move to mid-size law, where you might earn less, but it’s supposedly more stable? And with reduced loan debt, your lower salary of say $90K could get you by and be decent??? Or, conversely you could move to the small practices in a small local area as well? </p>

<p>I’m not saying that the path is easy to any of these options, but just trying to clarify them and see the PROS vs CONS. I guess what thing that I can imagine is that the “rush” you might get from big law and the taste of the big salaried life could leave you feeling unfilled afterwards if you don’t make it? …</p>

<p>And, of course, the worst case scenario is if you don’t get big law out of law school and you also can’t get mid-size law (without 3-5 years exp.) …and you don’t want to open a solo practice is a smaller area or join a smaller one. Then you’re in trouble IF you have big loans. </p>

<p>My friend said his friend was a public defender out of law school and then joined an insurance company as the insurance company’s lawyer! Is that a good paying and easy path too? That didn’t sound too bad. But hard to tell what is debt was like. It’s all about debt. If you have lots of debt, then you HAVE to get big law …hopefully for at least 2 years…or you’ll be in poverty from my calculations. </p>

<p>My goal is that if I apply and attend law school that I would NOT put myself in a position of having huge debt (I’d want a scholarship and/or have saved up money from working a few years), because I can see that’s life ruining or a pure gamble.</p>

<p>The ONLY exception I’ve heard some people say is that if you get Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, then those would be worth the $200K, given the high prospects of big law, prestigious public interest, or desirable gov’t work afterwards. Those 3 schools are everyone’s exception to the rule. But even then I’d think carefully about it…you could technically NOT get big law and/or flunk out once you do even with a HYS degree.</p>

<p>sorry for my novel!!! I am just free writing my thoughts tonight, lol! :)</p>

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<p>I FORGOT to ask in the post right above this one. …</p>

<p>If you graduate from law school and want to start a solo/small practice, here’s a question: </p>

<p>WHY would ANYONE hire you or trust you if you have no experience? If I wanted to have some legal work done, I’d want an experienced lawyer. I’m not sure I’d trust someone right out of law school with literally zero of a few months experience. …Would that not be a problem in terms of getting business? </p>

<p>Or are the rates like cheaper so people might choose you for the cost?</p>

<p>OK, thanks again. I’m done posting for the week now!!! :)</p>

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<p>DH went to an Ivy T-14, magna cum laude, Order of the Coif, Law Review editor, federal circuit clerkship, yada yada. Went to a highly regarded midsize litigation boutique (he had already decided against becoming Big Law cannon fodder) which had an excellent record of folks making partner or going on to academia. The economy started tanking about his 4th year, and by the time he got to year 7, noone had made partner in three years. Firm loved him, but he is not the “rainmaker” type. </p>

<p>A partner who had left and taken a job with the gov’t called him and said he needed DH’s financial background (DH did Wharton UG) to help negotiate what was happening at this agency. DH jumped at the chance and has been there since. Has had a happy and very successful career. He wears many hats and is valued by his agency. He has found that his accounting and systems analysis background from his five years of employment pre-LS have served him very well. OTOH, he works more hours now than he ever did as a law firm associate. If he were in private practice or with one of the agencies he regulates, he’d make a lot more money. However, he loves what he does and feels like he is making a real difference. </p>

<p>Not bad for a working class kid from the Bronx. He had about $50k in loans from UG and LS – would have had more, but we had been married three years when he went to LS and my salary paid for living expenses. No $$ help from either set of parents. Still, it took eight years to pay off everything. At the beginning, loan payments were just under $900 a month. As the smaller loans UG paid off, the amount decreased to about $600/mo. We did not buy a house until after the loans were paid off - we were 37 and had two kids in elem school by that time. We have been able to send both of our kids to the college of their choice, but we tend to live frugally, having both grown up in families that were on the edge of financial disaster on a regular basis.</p>

<p>He now hires folks for his team – last time he interviewed candidates, he got 1600 resumes for one position. Partners at Big Law, unemployed T-14s with resumes to die for, you name it. It really brought home to him how much the employment outlook has changed. It has become incredibly tough to land a legal job in the gov’t these days – yes, the pay is lower and the life (for many) is less crazed than Big Law, but there are also a ton of people looking for positions.</p>

<p>I have a friend who does trusts & estate law. She tended bar during law school, then was a contract attorney for another very small practice in our area. As clients got to know her, she got more of their work, and then picked up more cases as the attorneys in the original practice decided to retire. She now lives in another state and does T&E there, too, but comes back up here once a week to see her local clients. She also picked up ERISA work through the company where I worked. It works well for her.</p>

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<p>Thanks countingdown. I’m going to print and save your perpsective too. </p>

<p>Very informative and helpful!!! </p>

<p>Everyone keeps referring to this “rainmaking.” I’m not sure I understand completely, because are you saying that having awesome lawyer skills is NOT the same as “rainmaking”?? Your husband’s bakcground and credentials seemed awesome! But just doing a great job is not enough? You have to be a rainmaker? What is the difference, lol? </p>

<p>Oh and good for him for getting a great job now!!! YAY!</p>

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<p>As the mom of a vet grad student, med school grad student and recent U of Michigan Law grad, I’ll add my perspective.</p>

<p>There is lots of doom and gloom and the market is very difficult. </p>

<p>My son graduated cum laude from the University of Michigan in May. He’s currently awaiting bar results. He was hired at a mid-sized Midwest firm. He is working in business defense so not the area he most strongly desired. He is about $130,000 in debt and will earn $65,000 his first year. The high ticket jobs are few and far between. But, with earnings based loan repayment, the loans are reasonale despite the many years of repayment. And, if a student goes into a public service job, the loan term is reduced. The market reality is that you might start in a law area that is not your dream job. That’s reality in most majors though.</p>

<p>He could have gone to a lower tier school and had less debt and was offered a larger scholarship. Perhaps he would have even ranked higher in the class. But the firm where he was hired had not planned on hiring new associates but offered him a job after his 2L internship. He was told his U of MI degree got him noticed for an interview but the firm was also hesitant in believing he wanted to work there instead of at a big, east coast firm. Another intern was not hired but couldn’t write a basic brief and billed very few hours compared to others. Long story that there are no guarantees but sometimes you can still make your own path. For him, there was an advantage to a top tier school and the culture at the U of MI was a great fit. Add in some luck, perseverance, and working very hard to prove yourself in the job, and it can still work out just fine. </p>

<p>You look at the market and try to predict what will provide you the best job options for your desires and the market needs. Where do you want to work and what do they look for? Balance tiers, debts, and expected earnings. Don’t get sucked in by the promise of earning $150,000 your first day out of law school. But if law is really your passion, are willing to move anywhere, would consider working in widely divergent areas of law focus, and can accept debt, then there are still opportunities and the pay is still above many other professions! Few other professions offer strong job security either.</p>

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<p>Rainmaking refers to the ability to get new clients and bring in revenue. It is essentially a selling skill. In larger firms it is typically the partners responsibility to get new business, but very often one or two senior partners are the true “rainmakers”. They could be the founders or just the ones will all the business contacts. </p>

<p>It may sound counter-intuitive but rainmakers don’t have to be great attorneys: typically they have teams of associates doing the legal work and they charge a few hours to each project. Their skill set is selling the services of the firm not actually doing the work. </p>

<p>Pretty much all associates seeking to make partner will have to show some ability to get new clients, unless they have unique expertise in areas such as complex business litigation, tax or patent law that makes them invaluable to the firm. </p>

<p>In general, you are much better off as a rainmaker than just being a good attorney billing a lot of hours. If you can bring in business, you will be fine no matter what, and probably be the last one laid off in any downsizing. But rainmaking is not easy and you need to develop an extensive book of clients. It is a skill acquired with time and experience.</p>

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<p>There are a lot more factors at play than just firms size to determine job prospects and income. </p>

<p>First, remember that over half of all private lawyers in the US are solo practitioners. </p>

<p>Even among recent law school grads a increasing number of attorneys are going solo. There are dozens of sites to help you set up your practice. With technology, the cost of getting a practice up and running is very inexpensive. Even if your state requires you to get malpractice insurance, it is very cheap (less than $1,000/year) in the first few years. Since you have no clients your risk exposure is limited. Even in my specialty of patent law, which has some of the highest malpractice rates, it only costs me a few thousand dollars per year. </p>

<p>You will some docketing software and some is actually available for free as a Outlook plug-in and a full version is $25/month.</p>

<p>Can you make good money as a solo? Absolutely! In my specialty of patent law, many of the top attorneys are solo, because many law firms cannot afford to maintain a patent practice. Same thing in tax law. You can get many of the benefits of bigger firms without the hassles: you control your time and who you deal with.</p>

<p>As a solo, you can also partner with bigger firms by being of Counsel to get referrals. The bigger firm gets you business and bills the client. You can set your rates and don’t have to share the revenue. because there is no overhead, you can make a lot more per hour than if you were some associate in the firm. </p>

<p>How much can you make? That’s up to you and your “rainmaking” skills. I happen to have much more demand in patent law than I can handle right now and have started hiring subs to help me. I developed a detailed business plan and targeted an undeserved segment, small technology companies. They need my work and can’t afford the very large practices. My average billing rate is $300/hr and that is only about two thirds of many of my competitors. Because I have no overhead, I can keep pretty much everything I make. I can also set up flexible arrangements where if the companies can’t pay me all in cash, I can get paid in equity for some of the fees. I also set up flat-fee retainers, so the client does not have to worry about how often they call me, day or night. </p>

<p>Patent law is just an example of fields where solos can excel. Tax law is another. A good friend mine is a tax attorney and grosses well over $500K/year with no overhead. Bankruptcy law is also a very profitable field. Even criminal law is a profitable field especially if your clients are well off. I know divorce attorneys that handle complex cases with prenups. The list goes on and on. </p>

<p>Obviously, to set up your open practice, you have to be entrepreneurial, but remember, even if you go the law firm route, you will eventually have to have good selling skills. So why not get started early?</p>

<p>[Law</a> grads going solo and loving it - Business - Careers - NBCNews.com](<a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43442917/ns/business-careers/t/law-grads-going-solo-loving-it/]Law”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43442917/ns/business-careers/t/law-grads-going-solo-loving-it/)</p>

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<p>Cellardweller:</p>

<p>I’m glad you’re doing well, but posts like yours just feed the law school scam. Unfortunately, people who graduate from any law school these days–particularly one that is not one of the T-14 or pretenders–are much more likely to be desperately trying to get by than making upper middle class or better income.</p>

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<p>I have never bought the T-14 or bust argument. If you want to work for BigLaw maybe otherwise it is just plain rubbish! You have made the same unsupported arguments over and over again! Are you even a practicing attorney? If so what field?</p>

<p>I just came back from a licensing attorney conference. I don’t think I met any T-14 attorneys. Most were from state schools. I am pretty sure all of them make a decent income. I interact daily with the Microsoft Legal and Corporate Affairs Department. Microsoft employs over 1,000 attorneys, and they come from every single imaginable law school. In most fields, your legal experience is what matters not what school you went to. Open your horizons!</p>

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<p>45% of recent law school graduates don’t get legal experience, because nobody hires them into a legal job. I mean, you’re completely right that legal experience is what matters further into your career, but that doesn’t matter if assuming you’ll have a career is a leap of faith.</p>

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<p>That raises a different issue of supply and demand. This affects law school grads at all levels and from all law schools. Until recently, there was an oversupply of computer scientists who could not find jobs on graduation. This is less of an issue today. Even in law, some graduates have no trouble getting experience. In my field of IP, there are plenty of opportunities. Many of the openings are in patent law which requires an undergraduate science or engineering degree, which limits the field of applicants. Tax law is also a busy field, and many applicants have also degrees in accounting or finance.</p>

<p>I recognize that it is hard for a young law school grad without any prior business experience to get a job in the current environment. But is hard for nearly all graduates to find jobs. My Own D wants to go to law school after she graduates as an economics major two year from now. I have suggested she works a few years in industry beforehand, gets some corporate experience working in a legal department before going to law school. </p>

<p>I recently went back to a big reunion of my law school, the University of Connecticut, certainly no top-14 law school but a very decent state flagship. I was part of the class of 2009, which was hit by the equivalent of Katrina on graduation. Many of my classmates told stories of having to struggle to find a job on graduation, sometimes any job. Now, three years later, many if not most are employed in the legal profession. Some work for biglaw in New York, others for smaller local firms, a number work for legal departments in corporations in Stamford and Hartford, quite a few for state and local government. I heard of classmates having exited law altogether, working for banks or other financial institutions even going back to business school. I only met one other solo practitioner at the reunion, a woman who had built a successful bankruptcy practice. Of course, not everybody from my class was present, but it seemed the vast majority had managed to somehow be gainfully employed.</p>

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<p>No, I’m not a practicing lawyer. I teach law at a state law school that most would consider to be at about the same level as UConn. As such, I am a major beneficiary of the law school scam.</p>

<p>I can tell you that while a few of our recent graduates are doing very well, many are really struggling–huge debts and dismal employment opportunities. By contrast, my impression is that T-14 graduates, by and large do have employment opportunities (although in many cases, not at the level that they hoped).</p>

<p>The bottom line is that anyone who suggests that law school in general is a good investment is doing a major disservice to potential applicants, unless the potential applicant is really hooked in or has something else special going for him. </p>

<p>With that, I’m done. Believe what you want cellardweller. I wish you continued good fortune.</p>

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<p>Maybe you should find another line of work if you are such a beneficiary of what you call a scam. </p>

<p>Again, I don’t think any of my classmates felt that law school was a scam. Some have had a tough time finding jobs, but not worse than their classmates in college who pursued other career paths, especially those with liberal arts degrees. Most feel they have gone through the worst and have at least jump-started their legal careers. </p>

<p>What is misleading is strictly focusing on careers with big law firms which employ a small minority of lawyers. That business model is increasingly failing anyway. I feel confident enough about the long term employment opportunities for lawyers in a number of fields to support my own D’s decision to pursue a legal career. She is not focused on biglaw and is much more interested in in-house corporate work. She has already a couple of offers for internships next summer. I am not worried for her!</p>