Top schools are not worth it?

Parents Forum
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<p>The whole talk about “top schools” and rankings is basically for college majors that will have 10,000 new grads competing for the same 1,000 jobs.</p>

<p>For majors like computer science or applied mathematics, you can graduate from the 200th ranked school and still have multiple job offers. Furthermore, in the years I have worked in senior engineering and/or engineering management, the group of new grads are from schools with various “mythical rankings”. The Top-10 school grads are sitting right next to the State-U grads who are sitting next to the 2+2 grads (2 years at community college, 2 years at university) who sitting next to local so-called no-name school grads…and ALL of them are reporting to some engineering manager who graduated from the University of No-Name.</p>

<p>Reading posts about how serious folks take rankings, AP courses and the like is funny when it really doesn’t matter if you are taking an “in-demand” major.</p>

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<p>Yes, Global, it all depends upon on the major. For example, for nursing, U.Penn is one of the few Ivy-Level-level schools with an undergrad nursing program. I’ve heard of some disappointment among Penn nursing students when they find out they are having some of the same clinical experiences as the local community college students, right next to them, but the Penn students are paying up to 8 times more. In nursing for example, the starting salaries in a hospital are the same – regardless of how much you paid for your degree. </p>

<p>(In that case, the undergrad degree is still helpful to get into a good grad program, but your on the job skills may matter more).</p>

<hr>

<p>I did read a great essay that clarified the distinction between excellent colleges and mediocre colleges as far as liberal arts. It said that a high quality college will place a much greater emphasis on requiring large amounts of writing by undergrad students, and will give them continual feedback on their writing. This includes regularly requiring essay answers on tests, as well as multiple other writing assignments. Too many mediocre colleges instead only emphasize multiple choice questions, with less writing required and very little individual feedback on writing skills. The more expensive colleges also typically have more emphasis on discussion and reasoning, which is helped by smaller class sizes. These matters can make a difference over a lifetime.</p>

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<p>any school my kid(s) can get into and I can afford = fine ***
all others = hellhole</p>

<p>*** ETA- and that I would be willing to put their car decal in my window…</p>

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<p>This is the authoritative source for college rankings. Be sure to refresh the lists on the “our rankings” list page several times. [College</a> Ranking Service, A Peerless Evaluation of Colleges, rankyourcollege.com](<a href=“http://www.rankyourcollege.com/rankings.html]College”>College Ranking Service, A Peerless Evaluation of Colleges, rankyourcollege.com)</p>

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<p>^^LOL, jym.</p>

<p>Any school my kid can’t get into = overrated
Any school my kid can’t get into that happens to be an Ivy = only for prestige whores**</p>

<p>**Your kid probably can’t get into Stanford, CalTech, the U of C, or MIT either, but this doesn’t apply to them. Ever.</p>

<p>Akin to the old question: What is a yuppie? Answer: Anyone who makes more money than I do.</p>

<p>Closely allied to the ever-popular</p>

<p>My D = sensitive
My D’s roommate = insane</p>

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<p>^ jym, that’s hilarious! </p>

<p>I always liked this list of schools that rank tops in NY Times wedding announcements:</p>

<p>

[Katie</a> Baker on the New York Times wedding section - Grantland](<a href=“http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6769919/matrimonial-moneyball]Katie”>» Matrimonial Moneyball)</p>

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<p>And some of us don’t think the experience that we think is valuable (and are willing to pay for) is really about landing-that-first-job. Of COURSE in most fields (beyond the all-important i-banking and management consulting) top school grads work right next to average school grads. That’s not news to anyone with any real world experience.</p>

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<p>My parenting = loving and concerned
My D’s roommate’s parents = helicopter</p>

<p>What I’m willing to spend on education = reasonable investment
What other people are willing to spend = waste of money</p>

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<p>^^ Well don’t leave us hanging what is that special experience? I’m being serious because I went to college with the sole intention of being employ-able at the end so I’m not familiar with other reasons to spend money on college.</p>

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<p><<<< waving hand wildly>>>> OOOOh… financegrad! As I mentioned in the “Ivy Rigor” thread, I got to take a class from Jean Arthur. That could only have happened at 2 schools. Does that count??? Oh wait. The “other” school was not a “top” school (it was a performing arts school, so maybe top to some). OK. Nevermind.</p>

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<p>I value the concept of living with and socializing with an extraordinarily bright group of students from all over the country / world who also value learning and intellectual pursuits, versus having to cherry-pick the “smart kids” from among the crowd. </p>

<p>I also highly value a national student body versus a student body that is primarily from the same area.</p>

<p>Of course, this is me. You’re not obligated to value the same things I do, but you asked.</p>

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<p>^^^ Can’t answer for the person you asked it from, but IME at school and seeing thousands (literally) of kids go on to college, that “special experience” comes from any school alumni are proud of and fiercely defensive of as a school and experience. It includes anything from rah rah sports to eating at ___ to taking classes with Prof X. I could add far more examples of things it includes, but of course, any one item need not be part of it pending the school.</p>

<p>The “experience” is missing from schools where people are mostly commuters and are focused solely on the education and not so much the “fun living.” The 2+2 group often fits in here.</p>

<p>Both get degrees and both work together, but one set loves their college “experience” and the other sees it more as a “fact of life.”</p>

<p>Oh yeah, and anyone with the “college experience” assumes “it” just isn’t found as deeply at any other school - only theirs. My two older boys have each picked “their” school and are fiercely proud of them already.</p>

<p>To get the “college experience” you merely need to find the right fit and live there for 4 years (or more). If you really don’t fit in with the main crowd, the “experience” is overrated. </p>

<p>All of these “generalizations” have been told to me over and over again by former students. There’s definitely a pattern. ;)</p>

<p>How much one is willing to pay for the experience is what varies. </p>

<p>Those coming out of school with huge loans often regret paying so much. Those with minor loans seldom do. Those who missed the experience often regret it (not always, but often). Even the janitor at our school told the kids before graduation last year that he really regrets not having gone to college and would if he could do life over again. It was kind of sad actually.</p>

<p>And all of this has definitely helped guide our family when searching for colleges… The college experience is necessary for us, so 2+2 options have never been seriously considered nor have commuter schools, but we do look for affordable fits based upon stats and programs. So far it’s worked well with my older two. Hopefully it will work again for youngest in 2 years.</p>

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<p>Pg - you answered what I was asking. I wasn’t trying to argue with your value system. I said my question was serious, because I only know of my situation and why I chose to go to college etc…so I was wondering what others might be. </p>

<p>Jym - not sure how to respond to that.</p>

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<p>LOL financegrad. That was my “special experience” that could only have happened at 2 schools.
Of course that goes without say that any profesor or visiting artist in residence that only goes to a certain school would only be a benefit to the students attending that school.</p>

<p>Will take my tongue out of my cheek now.</p>

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<p>Creekland - my question was not really about the college experience in general. I was asking in the context of this thread. If a person chooses to pay $$$ for a say a top 50 school, AND its not for the prestige or the job prospects opened by the degree, then what experience are they paying for?</p>

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<p>Financegrad - my point is a little more along the lines that the stories don’t really change much based upon the ranking of the school. ;)</p>

<p>The research options can change, but that’s all I can think of that changes in any of the stories. Lower level schools don’t tend to have the depth in research of the higher ranked schools with mid level being in-between, and of course, some variance in the type of school as opposed to how much research.</p>

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<p>Sorry, don’t have time to read all the posts.</p>

<p>My son was accepted to Harvard. It was cheaper for him to go to Harvard (a top school) than the state school - University of Wisconsin, Madison (cheap school).</p>

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<p>^^^It’s easy for no-brainer decisions. What would you do if you had to pay full fare at either school or if Harvard costs ( insert the $$ that gives you pause) more for 4 years ? That is the question.</p>

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<p>Sorry to quote myself, but there’s a thread on an MIT board in which students are talking about why they picked MIT and there seems to be a common story that the idea of being only / primarily with scientists / engineers was something that was really compelling for these kids - that it provided a common bond and a special experience that they, themselves, would not have gotten if they’d gone to a traditional more well-rounded university with students in all majors.</p>

<p>While that’s not my personal preference, I can certainly see how a kid who was “made” that way would prefer an MIT, Caltech, etc. environment over a more well-rounded place. </p>

<p>If you can see why someone would have that preference, I don’t see what’s so hard about seeing that for other kids, just being with a bunch of really smart kids would be equally important, relevant, motivating and an experience that couldn’t be easily found elsewhere.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl - it is important for a student to understand themselves and find the right fit for them. If they don’t, then I get the reports back that the “college experience” is “overrated.” But it’s a fallacy to think only one school provides that right fit. I suspect those MIT students have already convinced themselves that only MIT would be giving them what they have now. In reality, any similar school would be doing the same.</p>

<p>Students “brand themselves” with their school in a similar way that many do with their nationality. They fail to realize if they’d gone elsewhere they’d feel just as “patriotic.”</p>

<p>When one is applying, do look for good fits for the particular student - then look for similar schools. For those on a budget or simply preferring less costly options, search for those combined with the fit. They’re usually out there. When my guys visited and spent the night at schools we could afford, they knew which one(s) were right for them. And now they are loving their experiences and would easily tell anyone to come where they are (different schools for each). BOTH will tell you they like being around really smart kids/profs. That’s common in almost all stories. It’s simply a huge difference from high school or community college (they took courses there as high schoolers).</p>