Top tier college education worth it ?

Parents Forum
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<p>Of course you can 't ignore money. My point is that the claims about how prestigious privates want to maximize tuition revenue while publics don’t is overly simplistic. IMHO very selective privates which don’t accept a lot of transfers and have stingy credit transfer policies from AP/dual credit are engaging in a form of brand protection which they believe (rightly or wrongly) helps them maintain their long-term market position. They aren’t refusing to take junior’s AP credits just because they really need that extra 10K from you. At a certain level, when a college is no longer tuition-dependent for day-to-day operations, it follows a different financial logic.</p>

<p>And of course, if their product doesn’t seem to be a good value to you, you don’t have to buy it. </p>

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<p>oh please. If your kid took calculus in HS or at a community college, the college assumes that your kid wants to show up at college and take the next class in the sequence. Unless you’re talking about a college which is giving “life credits” for things like knowing how to balance a checkbook or apply for a mortgage as being “Finance 101”, why on earth would you want a college which is shortchanging your kid?</p>

<p>Colleges get accreditation from various independent organizations. Too many degrees granted to kids who have not completed the bulk of their education at the degree granting institution is a red flag for accreditation. Hospitals don’t want to train nurses who got their BSN from 5 different places (a few credits here, a few credits there, piecing together a nursing education). They want to train nurses who have graduated from an accredited program which has standards in place to insure that a graduate is going to take the Boards at the appropriate time, and pass them, and not risk the hospitals OWN accreditation by having had a shoddy education with no oversight.</p>

<p>Really folks this isn’t brain surgery. You can take a Wharton class for executives called “M&A and Leverage” but nobody- least of all your own employer who is paying for it- thinks it’s the same as graduating from Wharton with an MBA focused on finance. That’s not because Wharton can’t teach finance to executives… it’s because there is a material difference in the education that Wharton gives students who sit in classrooms for two years, with a competitive admissions process, and a mechanism for making sure that students pass their classes and have the right courses in the right sequence to graduate. They don’t care what your GMAT score is if you’re taking a random three day seminar-- nor are they "certifying’ that you are a Wharton grad.</p>

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<p>Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Harvard or any other school would make a kid repeat <em>exactly the same calculus</em> that s/he had already covered, IF the school believed that s/he had mastered it to the degree required by the school. Most schools seem to have multiple levels of calc. Students can be placed in them according to their level of preparation, which can be determined by courses taken, AP results, or placement tests. They also allow for students to appeal to the professor.</p>

<p>It is not at all uncommon for students–especially premeds, one gathers–to deliberately take a calc class that duplicates HS work in order to make it easier to get an excellent grade. College-level calc, at least at top schools, public or private, can be a VERY different proposition. Kids I know who got 4s and 5s on the AP Calc AB and BC tests said that their calc courses at their Ivies were brutal, nontheless. I used to participate in a forum for families of gifted kids, and I remember a number of parents saying that if their kid took calc at the local college, that IUIC would refuse to accept it. There is a reason why each department at a given school determines how they will use AP exam results, and what kind of placement they will grant. And I think it is based on their experience of students presenting that credential. All college classes are not created equal.</p>

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<p>Nope! If that were the case, they would not even accept transfer students. There are highly selective prep schools that do what you say. They rarely, if ever, accept transfers inbound. </p>

<p>This is simply a scam. Transfer in from a CC and you get your credits. Transfer those same credits directly from HS, that is a no-go.</p>

<p>For what it is worth, I think that it should be impossible to earn any college credit while in HS. Not a fan of the dual-credit or AP as credit thing, but the system is what the system is. But the hypocrisy of the elitist schools turn themselves into a bit of a joke.</p>

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<p>Nope! Right back at you. If you think that elite schools will automatically accept all of your CC credits, or summer courses you take at school X, think again. </p>

<p>Sure, if you go to a CC that has an actual agreement with a 4-yr school that specifies which courses will transfer, you are all set. But all of them don’t. Which is why people on CC who know about these things always tell kids to make sure their CC has an articulation agreement or whatever it’s called with the 4-year school.</p>

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<p>Eh. Some elite universities believe so much in brand protection that they take in a bunch of transfers. A bunch have extension schools and the like. Obviously, HES isn’t Harvard College, but it is under Harvard University. Mind you, I don’t think that that is a <em>bad</em> thing. Serving nontraditional members of a city a university is a part of should be commended. Still others have grad programs that are much easier to get in to than their flagship undergrad program. Look, every university tries to do what it thinks is right while looking out for their own interests. Every student/applicant should as well.</p>

<p>I recently found out that USC essentially guarantees its legacies who want to be Trojans badly enough and work hard enough a way in to USC with its Trojan transfer program (basically, legacies who don’t have the stats to get in straight out of HS can transfer in if they maintain a high enough GPA for a year elsewhere). Cornell has essentially the same legacy-protection scheme with its guaranteed transfer program.
I personally would be in favor of my alma mater adopting the same scheme for its legacies who apply ED (so you know that it is their first choice school). Perhaps by even spending the first year or so in the non-flagship program. My friend from undergrad didn’t think much of the idea.</p>

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<p>“Eh. Some elite universities believe so much in brand protection that they take in a bunch of transfers. A bunch have extension schools and the like. Obviously, HES isn’t Harvard College, but it is under Harvard University.”</p>

<p>The existence of extension schools to serve older or non-traditional or lifelong-learner types has nothing to do with anything. No one is saying that these schools are noble or righteous. They are businesses. But part of what they sell is a specific education, and they get to be picky and choosy over what they think is acceptable and what they think isn’t. And they get to say that work done elsewhere, or AP credits, or whatever, can fulfill a requirement but you still have to take a fresh class. I know some people want to try to show up with a bazillion cheaply earned credits elsewhere and take the minimum at Prestigious U, but Prestigious U is under no obligation to grant that to them. Apply elsewhere if you don’t like it. </p>

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<p>Mind you, I don’t think that some schools not being willing to take some AP credits is cynical or hypocritical. Many AP courses simply aren’t as difficult as the college version at that college. Each university will do what it deems best. So should the applicant/student. Live and let live.</p>

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There are quite a few exceptions. Some selective privates are not stingy with AP/dual credit polices, and some accept a good amount of transfer students. For example, when I started at Stanford, I had 1 year’s worth of AP+transferable credit. The 2 AP classes and the many college courses I took during HS all counted towards my required graduation credits, up to the max of 45 credits (1 year), including college classes that did not have a Stanford equivalent.Stanford does not admit many transfers since the number of available transfer spaces corresponds to the number of underclassmen that leave, which is a very small portion of the class. However, some other selective privates do admit a large number of transfers and allow the number of upperclassmen to far exceed the number of underclassmen. For example, Cornell typically admits over 700 transfers per year (over 500 matriculate), even though they have a high graduation rate with few underclassmen leaving the school.</p>

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<p>What? They would not make him retake calc. Maybe they wouldn’t give him credit for that class, but Harvard and Cornell have many freshman that take upper-level and sometimes even graduate level math classes freshman year.</p>

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<p>At State U, after junior year of HS, son would have entered as a junior. Where he went, you could only place out of classes by completing exams the summer before matriculating. 5’s on APs, local U classes, nothing mattered but what you had learned. While he did not have to take remedial classes, he certainly did not take advanced classes.
It is interesting to read how other colleges set their standards. </p>

<p>Cornell has been mentioned. My client left Cornell on medical leave. She took classes at the local U, most of which Cornell would not accept. with an N=1, my sense is that Cornell is particular about what they deem to be Cornell-appropriate. </p>

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<p>Sometimes, as shravas is pointing out sideways, the education you get in an AP class, which is a lot about how to take the AP test, is not going to prepare you well for the next class in the sequence. A university skipping a student out of calc due to AP might not be doing that student any favors in the long run.</p>

<p>First years are in the middle of a transition and have a lot of adjusting to do. One thing they have to learn is how to cover that same amount of material in 15 weeks. There are a lot of factors.</p>

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<p>A lot of elite schools actually do give students the opportunity to apply for advanced standing that may allow them to graduate up to a year early. Whether or not a particular AP or IB exam can be used to substitute for various courses is judged on a case by case basis; a school might let a student skip intro calc with a 5 on BC, but not give credit for AB, or might allow a 4 or 5 on Spanish to fulfill a language requirement but determine math placement based on a test regardless of prior exam scores or coursework. </p>

<p>Very few students take advantage of advanced standing because, apart from the desire to spend four year on campus, there are plenty of practical reasons that graduating earlier is a bad idea in most cases. In most majors - including STEM - getting a degree isn’t just a matter of completing a sequence; even once you get into advanced level courses, there are plenty of courses to take. An extra year gives you more time to build an impressive transcript that suggests exposure to a range of topics in your field, something that will be useful whether graduate school or certain professions are your next step. In other cases, graduating in three years might lead to a tougher course load each semester, since you have less time in which to space out your most difficult required courses. </p>

<p>To the extent that top schools do treat transfer students and incoming freshman differently, they may have pretty good reasons for doing so. I’d wager that Yale is taking very, very few transfers from CCs or regional four year colleges. On the other hand, the majority of incoming freshman who have some college credits have probably been commuting to local schools where an “A” in an intro course might not say much about a student’s readiness for the next in the comparable sequence in an elite school. There’s also a practical component - in the rare case that a potential CC transfer is spectacular enough to catch Yale’s eye, it simply isn’t reasonable to expect a student to write off two years of full time education as a loss. If you want a chance at that student, you simply can’t make him or her start over. It is a lot easier to tell a freshman that the summer enrichment course he took as a high school student doesn’t count.</p>

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<p>That is why it is a good idea for new frosh with AP credit to try the old final exams of the courses that may be skipped, if they are intending to take more advanced courses for which those potentially skipped courses are prerequisites for. It should not be assumed that the student should automatically repeat all of his/her AP credit.</p>

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<p>Any decent college, including a community college, will require the transition to a greater level of self-motivation and less hand-holding than in high school. But that is independent of whether a student who has had advanced (AP or college) courses in high school has learned material that would place him/her into a more advanced course when starting college.</p>

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<p>To the OP, the continuing arguments between those who say, “the Ivies (or elite schools) are not really special and you could do just as well attending your flagship in state university” and those who say “the Ivies or Elites are so so so so special that your kids will be doomed if they don’t go there (but mine are not because they are going)” tend to be best ignored. I do think that the article that annasdad cited is written by a guy who knows the answer and tries to bend the information to fit it. He has a strong vested interested in the conclusion. Not sure why in his case. So, I’m going to focus instead on your concern as an immigrant and children of immigrants, which is making sure you make choices that enable you to earn enough to support a family at a nice level.</p>

<p>If your interest is in earning a sufficient living to support a family, probably what matters the most is the field you choose. At the moment, folks who have training that lets them work in software, tech industries, or financial industries tend to do well. This typically but not always includes folks with computer science, engineering, physics, math, statistics, etc. degrees. (STEM but probably not so much biology and I’m not sure about chemistry). A close friend of my son is an art student with a technical background – he was making over $50,000 a year in a gap year during high school. In a recent study, the median salary of data scientists was $117.5K and went up with for people knowledgeable with a great set of tools. Supply of STEM folks could increase and if demand doesn’t as fast, wages will decline. But so far, supply is restricted relative to demand. </p>

<p>It used to be that kids who went to Ivies and majored in English or art history would waltz over to the management training programs at banks and then have a job in banking or finance (and would drink gin and tonics or martinis in Darien, CT)… Knowledgeable people can correct me, but I think the banks have eliminated or curtailed these programs and generally companies are looking for students with skills that make them productive right out of school. Take a look at Northeastern with its coop program in Boston. </p>

<p>On average, kids from the elite schools in the same fields are likely to earn more – particularly in finance. Like you, OP, I’m thinking comparing the very top schools (the elite 15 or so including the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Amherst, Williams, … ) with strong schools that are below the very top. For starting salaries, it is very likely that there is a much higher correlation between salary and the field of study than eliteness of school. It is possible that over the life of a career, students from elite schools do better in terms of income, but that probably conflates about three things: 1) on average, it is harder to get into elite schools and thus the kids will on average be stronger; 2) elite schools tend to have much stronger alumni networks; and 3) employers tend to give weight to the eliteness of the school when hiring (“She went to Stanford. She must be bright.”)</p>

<p>To have a fairly good shot at making a good income, I would focus on getting into the appropriate STEM area of a strong school that has a good reputation in the field you are going into and then get internships that cause you to learn about what you need to do inside businesses. </p>

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<p><a href=“University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums”>University Graduate Career Surveys - #69 by ucbalumnus - Career Opportunities & Internships - College Confidential Forums;

<p>Biology is the most popular STEM major, but new graduate pay levels tend to be low, even from schools like MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, etc…</p>

<p>However, some elitist employers (Wall Street and management consulting) have a reputation of being much more focused on school-prestige than other employers.</p>

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<p>@ucbalumnus, I think you provided a survey that showed me that biology and maybe chemistry grads don’t do so well financially as there is an oversupply, no? So, I think we agree that STEM ex-biology and maybe chemistry tend to be better for meeting the OP’s needs than English or History.</p>

<p>I agree that financial firms (hedgies, i-banks, PE) and strategy consulting (a small subset of management consulting) focus on the very top schools. I would guess that if we said we were giving the OP advice, we would say, on average field matters more than school (in the top few tiers) because the numbers of elite students heading into finance or strategy was small compared to the total number of students. Is that not correct?</p>

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<p>There’s more of a differentiation by school with some majors than others. Someone who’s good in engineering or CS or has good quant skills will likely do well regardless of the school they go to (some schools do open more doors in those fields as well, but some of those schools actually are publics). However English majors from an Ivy do much better than English majors from, say, OSU.</p>

<p>The banks still like Ivy League athletes with a liberal arts major and high GPAs, but finance has definitely gotten more quantitative as well.</p>

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<p>I’m not convinced that a kid who finds taking AP/IB classes stressful and high-pressure is going to be happy in the kind of super-high paying financial jobs you are talking about. There is going to be stress and a lot of long hours in jobs like that. But there are many, many jobs in this country which comfortably support a family. You don’t have to be a hedge fund manager or investment banker.</p>

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<p>Surely at some point this country is going to have an oversupply of most STEM graduates, with everyone rushing to enroll in STEM programs all over the place. I’m not saying it will happen in the next few years, but honestly, this is a classic boom/bust pattern. I remember when everyone was stampeding into law school because it looked like there would always be jobs for lawyers. It’s very different now.</p>