Based on this, I hope the SuperMods are kind and will end this thread.
Goodnight all and be safe!
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I believe the three members above have made their point and can move on. College Confidential is not a debate society and nobody’s opinion will change as the result of this thread.
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Thank you. History has been made, with its winners and losers. It’s time to end this thread, so please close it down!
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You do realize that the podiums are set at different heights and the swimmers on the right have knees bent and are leaning in for the picture?
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I posted comments above that were soundly in the minority, stating that Lia followed the rules, and should be allowed to compete. It’s not that she’s competing, it’s that she’s winning. If she’d have come in 3rd at the Ivy’s or nationals, it wouldn’t have been a problem. It’s only really a problem when she wins.
To be clear, I’m not addressing the fairness of the rule…just that by following the rules that were in place at the start of this season, she should be allowed to compete and win.
Now that these races are over, it’s possible to compare vs previous years. If you look at the time Lia posted in the 500, it would have won last year by ~ 0.30 seconds. The winner last year won by 2 seconds (more than Lia), so let’s call it a tie.
There was no meet in 2020.
In the prior 6 meets, Lia would not have won the 500. She would have been 2nd or 3rd in those races, but in one of her 2nd place finishes would have lost by over 8 seconds.
Lia is competitive, but not overpowering. This year’s female swimmers are slower than in recent years. In 2019, Lia would have finished 3rd. Would so many people care?
I’m sure Ms. Wayant wanted to win, but she wouldn’t trade places with Lia to achieve that goal.
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Katie Ledecky is 6 foot. There are other female Olympic swimmers that are even taller.
Lia is following the NCAA rules for her sport.
Totally fine with me to debate the rules but this thread has turned into so many demeaning comments and misgendering this young athlete.
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why do people care? because it’s setting a precedent for biologically born males to compete and win in women’s sports – after so many years fighting for equality and recognition. People don’t want it happening in their sport of choice; be it volleyball, softball, basketball, gymnastics, cross country, soccer, etc. It is a slam in the face to all of that hard work for level playing fields.
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There is a huge mass difference between Lia and the three next women that medalled in the recent race as was shown by the photo I posted. Lia benefited greatly from male testosterone and the muscle and strength advantage that it provided. That can’t just be removed. Lia still retains much of those benefits. Hopefully moving forward this unfair advantage will not be allowed to cloud women’s sports. It’s not a fair competition.
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What’s fair? Never allowing transgender participation in sports? If that’s not the answer, then how successful can a transgender athlete be? Obviously, they can’t be allowed to win…so what’s fair?
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I agree with the first part, but disagree with the second. While there is a minority that are transphobic and don’t think that any trans athlete should be allowed in the pool, I think the majority of people are in support of Lia being able to swim competitively. I believe they would even be in support of her winning had this been in line with her previous performance prior to transition. I.e. if she had been a champion on the men’s team, people would be ok with her being a champion on the woman’s team. But instead, she went from being a mediocre swimmer on the men’s team to being national champion on the women’s team. That doesn’t seem fair.
I agree that Lia followed the rules as they are currently written and I wish her well. At the same time, I hope the rules will be rewritten. The current rules were created at a time when researchers thought that 2 years of estrogen treatment could erase the advantage of testosterone-dominant puberty, creating a level playing field. It is becoming increasingly clear that in many sports, NO amount of estrogen treatment can totally erase the enormous advantage that testosterone-puberty gives.
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You have said multiple times here that its only an issue if she wins. I disagree with that. I think the rule at the beginning of the year was wrong. It lacked common sense and ignored much of reality of biology. At least they have since changed it.
As I noted earlier, I would have made the rule change effective immediately rather than next season. Wasn’t a matter, to me, of something that wasn’t known or shouldn’t have been known when the original rule was put in place. But they didn’t do that. Different people have different views on that. So be it.
Given they didn’t make the rule change effective immediately she had the right to compete. I would direct criticism at rule making body rather than her.
Would this issue have gotten as much coverage had she finished 3rd? Likely not. Does that somehow make what was wrong, right? I don’t think so. Tree falling in the forest still makes a sound, right? Issue to me is fairness not who wins or loses (and the governing body acknowledged a lack of fairness which is why they changed the rule). Reduced coverage with 3rd though is just a matter of reality of limited resources, attention, etc. in terms of what gets coverage. Doesn’t change something that’s wrong into right simply because it gets less coverage.
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I agree. It took Lia’s case (mediocre swimmer becoming national champion after transition) to really bring the issue into the news. But Lia is not the first transwoman who has competed and “climbed the ranks” after transition. It is a pity that the governing body did not pay attention to it previously, and change the rules as soon as it became clear that testosterone-derived benefits could not be adequately erased by estrogen treatment.
As a side note, I do also think about transman athletes. It is clear that no amount of testosterone treatment can completely erase the disadvantages of going through estrogen-dominant puberty (height is permanently stunted by ~ 5 inches, hips are permanently wider, shoulders permanently narrower, feet and hands permanently smaller even for a given height.) Transmen realistically have to give up the possibility of being competitive when they transition and join the men’s team. Thus, many choose to delay hormonal transition and continue to compete on the women’s team, which surely cannot be what most would prefer. I hope there will eventually be a way for trans athletes to transition, and still be competitive in a category that does not take away their opportunities OR the opportunities of cis women athletes.
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It is a positive that Lia Thomas swimming this year resulted in many organizations (USOC, NCAA, National/International sport governing boards) more thoroughly examining and refining their transgender participation policies. More clarity is better for all.
Some resources:
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NCAA press release on the decision to not implement new testosterone threshold for trans women this season (after USA Swimming changed their policy): CSMAS subcommittee recommends no additional changes to testosterone threshold for trans women at 2022 women’s swimming and diving championships - NCAA.org
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NCAA transgender student-athlete participating policy, note new clause that NCAA defers to national sport governing bodies (which is the correct decision):
Like the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee, the updated NCAA policy calls for transgender student-athlete participation for each sport to be determined by the policy for the national governing body of that sport. Transgender Student-Athlete Participation Policy - NCAA.org
- USA Swimming Athlete Gender Inclusion, Competitive Equity, and Eligibility Policy:
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USA Swimming’s Athlete Gender Inclusion, Competitive Equity and Eligibility Elite Athlete/Event Fairness Application. This is the document that contains the various requirements, including biological. These take effect for NCAA purposes next season.
Athletes must include/meet the following:
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A statement from the athlete
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Any and all relevant documentation evidencing medical intervention which has mitigated the athlete’s prior development as a Male.
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Documentation evidencing the concentration of testosterone in athlete’s serum has been less than 5nmol/L (as measured by liquid chromatography coupled with mass spectrometry) continuously for a period of at least thirty-six (36) months before the date of this Application. This must include at a minimum three (3) separate blood tests within the past three hundred and sixty-five (365) days preceding this Application, with the last test conducted within ninety (90) days prior to this Application.
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I am not sure where I land on this. But I can’t help but feel had she been coming in 10th or 20th, etc. everyone would be raving about her and being supportive. But since she is winning…
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This is an example of where dreams do not come true.
While it took me a while to respond, I have been keeping an active eye on this thread. However given the number of colleges releasing decisions yesterday, my focus was on those threads, not responding to posts elsewhere.
I see no reason to close the thread…yet. The topic is worth discussing and I think that most people here can have adult conversations without violating ToS. If and when violations occur, we will deal with accordingly.
The selection of emojis is set by the host provider, not CC. Puerile and / or inappropriate use of such emojis says more about the user IMO. Other users can form their own opinion. Regardless, the fact that certain emojis exist is far above my pay grade.
I offer the above as context, not to open the door for discussion of my actions on the thread and / or CC policies, as that would violate ToS.
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Having read through most of the posts in this thread (but definitely not all of them) I am not sure how many people (if any) who are not raving Lia in this thread would be doing so had she finished 10th or 20th.
Plenty would still be upset. The kid who comes in 12th place at this level cares that she was 12th, not 11th. Moreover, some people do care about the perceived fairness of a race
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Agreed, not nearly as many would be talking about it because it would not have been as widely reported. But I am glad this issue is finally getting the wider attention it deserves. I have been interested in the issue of women athletes who have been exposed to testosterone (either because of being trans or due to DSDs-Differences in Sexual Development aka “intersex” conditions) since the late 1980s when Maria José Martínez-Patiño’s case was first reported. Martínez-Patiño’s case led me do a deep-dive into the biology of testosterone-dominant vs. estrogen-dominant puberty, as well as into the various DSDs. I also have a personal interest for other reasons. In any case, I believe the solutions to these dilemmas are nuanced, but unfortunately most of the discourse I read is not.
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The beauty and frustration of this discussion are that there is no way to identify fairness when transgender athletes compete against those who have not transitioned.
I agree with the rule changes, but I also agree with Lia being able to compete. I haven’t looked much, but my quick assessment of the current women at the NCAA meet this year is that they are a bit weaker than in the past, making the situation more pronounced.
My gut feelings are that Lia has an advantage, but an advantage is something every athlete looks for. Lia Thomas did nothing wrong. Nobody did anything wrong, yet here we are. My overriding thought is that the bravery of Lia, while complying with the rules, should not be penalized because she is winning. Almost nobody cared about the rules a year ago, and punishing the one person who followed them is more of an injustice than providing her with a possible advantage. Nobody would go through what she has to win a swim meet. She deserves support and appreciation, not challenges and ridicule.
If Katey Ledecky was still in college, this would be page 2 of the sports section instead of the front page of the NY Times.