Transition from undergrad to grad... prestige matter?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>Hey guys,
Due to the length constraints on thread titles, my question may have come out a bit garbled. Here it is, in full:</p>

<p>I'm currently a high school senior looking into the engineering programs at several colleges. I'm highly interested in doing research, and will probably proceed to grad school after undergrad. Of course, that's the plan right now, subject to change. I'm currently looking quite keenly at the University of Virginia. I'm in-state, so it's comparatively cheap, and I stand a decent chance at being nominated a Rodman Scholar. I've toured the campus, talked to students, and liked it a lot.</p>

<p>Get the picture? Ok, let's travel north a bit. To, I dunno, MIT or Cornell. Columbia maybe. Who knows? The likelihood of me (or anyone, really) getting into any of those schools is a bit slim. But suppose I did. </p>

<p>Accelerate four years. In Alternate Universe #1, I graduate from UVa. In AU#2 it's MIT. How much more prepared is the student from MIT? Or is he any more prepared? Students from MIT in general seem to do well, but that's self-selection based on the fact that only 1st percentile students get into MIT. I think it’s fair to say that UVa has a wider range of student aptitudes. However, this is the same student. He worked just as hard at UVa as he did at MIT. He's just as "smart" at UVa as he is at MIT. How much of a difference would the caliber of the classes/profs/students make when they applied for grad school at, say, Stanford?</p>

<p>In your opinion, is the MIT version of Tadd89 more prepared academically?
Does the prestige from the name of his undergrad school help him get into grad school?</p>

<p>And finally, when (in the distant future) that freshly minted PhD from Stanford interviews for a job at the Jet Propulsion Lab or some similarly competitive research/academe position, do the interviewers care that he went to MIT or UVa for his undergrad degree? Or is all that matters the research he performed at the graduate level at Stanford?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance!</p>

<p>PS: I’m just using MIT and Stanford as examples. The comparison here really isn’t about UVa vs MIT (although the comparison matters to me personally), it’s more about "Public Elite" vs. "Private Elite."</p>

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<p>If you get a full ride or your family can COMFORTABLY afford a private education AND you get accepted, then by all means go to a private school. Otherwise, go to UVA, you’ll still get a great education without putting yourself or your family in a lot of debt.</p>

<p>For graduate/professional school, it’s a whole different story, but you shouldn’t worry about it until you get to that point.</p>

<p>P.S. in case you missed the memo, the super elite private institutions in the United States of America are there to make the wealthy ones super wealthy. The top publics are the real engine behind social and economic mobility. Unless you reside in a household among the nation’s top 2% of course … in which case I’m not sure what you’re doing around here?</p>

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<p>Thank you for the reply! :)</p>

<p>So just for confirmation… you believe that the undergraduate education received at UVa or any other top public will be just as beneficial to a motivated student as an education from a top private? Academically speaking. I’m not obsessed with making a gazillion USD after graduation like some folks on CC.</p>

<p>As for grad school, I’m not worried about it. I’m not trying to plan my life 4 years in advance. I’m merely curious. Let me rephrase the question. If MIT guy does research alongside UVa guy in a graduate program at Stanford and they both equally contribute, will people looking to hire them care about their undergrad school, or will their research be all that matters? One would hope that at that point people would care about what they did and not where they went, but who knows? I don’t, so I’m asking you.</p>

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<p>Not really, Once you go to graduate school the undergraduate program you attended doesn’t really matter. All you need to be concerned about is keeping your grades up during undergrad cause that’s all that really matters to get into graduate school. I believe the reason why it’s not unusual for the majority of students at a top grad school such as Stanford are from private schools is due mostly in part to grade deflation and smaller class sizes. They do have the advantage that’s a given. However, a school such as UVA will supply you with a top notch public education.</p>

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<p>MIT is an extreme case. If you are highly motivated, and get into MIT.
PLEASE GO THERE.</p>

<p>MIT can do wonders for someone who is motivated. The only problem I see with going to a school that is not too renowned for it’s engineering is that you might not get a proper gauge of actually how good you have to be, in order to get somewhere in future research. </p>

<p>However in terms of the question you posed about whether employers will care where you did your undergrad, once you get into a good grad school? I don’t think so.</p>

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<p>I disagree with the above…if you get into MIT and have the cash to pay for it, then go but there’s no school that’s worth $200,000 in debt, especially if you plan on going to graduate school right away rather than working.</p>

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<p>cessnovember - I’m sorry I have to disagree. Although a school like MIT may seem like a staggering economic investment, a school of such prestige can open many many doors, the networking opportunities are unlimited.</p>

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<p>Sorry for maybe going a little offtopic, but does a three year bachelor degree at MIT cost 200 000USD?</p>

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<p>The number of doors an MIT degree opens is easily negated by the number of doors closed by that level of debt. Let’s assume that a student borrows the full amount; assuming that interest is subsidized (which is unlikely for any amount more than $19k for the average student) and the payments are spread out over ten years, the monthly payment for that debt is $2,301.61. Now, unless you land a very high paying job immediately after graduation or somehow stumble on some large inheritance, it’s going to be very tough to pay it off. Engineering jobs generally start around $50k but since we’re talking MIT grads here, we can start at $80k, which is extremely generous. </p>

<p>$80k becomes $60k assuming that you’re in the 25% tax bracket and that you’re living in a state that doesn’t have it’s own income tax. Rent and utilities will easily eat up $12k, a car will set you back about $5k, food will cost around $4500, other necessary miscellaneous expenses will probably total $3k, and you could probably expect at least $1k in clothes/entertainment/cell phone, etc. You’re up to $25,500 already. Tack on the $27,619.30 that you’re paying in student loans and you’re up to $52,619.30. You have a little over $7k left over but that’s if you’re relatively frugal and in a state with no state income tax. I’m also being really optimistic here; I just plugged in some numbers into the loan calculator at <a href=“http://www.finaid.org%5B/url%5D”>www.finaid.org</a> and it estimated that to be able to afford the loan, you should be making at least $200,000 AGI/yr. It seems high to me but it makes sense because $200k is the cost of a house and many people pay it off over 15-30 years and not just 10.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that the highest paying jobs tend to be in the areas where the cost of living is sky high. A waitress can make $160k a year in NYC but how far will that really get her? I’m digressing a little but the point is, such debt is crippling for the new college grad. I’m assuming from the OP’s post that he’s interested in grad school; in that time, not only will the interest on his loans accumulate, he won’t be making sizable payments. If he chose to go to professional school instead of grad school, he’ll have another 200-300k dollars in debt. How long will that take him to pay off? How will that affect his ability to buy a car or a house, go on a vacation, or whatnot?</p>

<p>Obviously, we all have different values in life and different financial situations. I personally don’t think that kind of debt is worth it, especially when the alternative is an excellent education at a great price. To the OP, I encourage you to sit down with your parents to have a frank talk about finances; I don’t know your situation/values so I can’t really say what the appropriate path is but do examine all of the options before you commit to such a staggering amount of debt.</p>

<p>Electro: One year at MIT will cost around $50k when you factor in all expenses so a four year bachelor degree will total around $200k.</p>

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<p>Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying. MIT and Stanford are better in terms of social mobility but are still not worth the debt when you have a top public in your state. We’re not talking about a third rate college in comparison to the best in the nation here, we’re talking about a very well respected public institution in comparison to top privates. Whatever motivation, ambition and talent you possess will bring you to the same level of success 20 years from now whether you go to UVA or MIT.</p>

<p>For graduate/professional school, the game changes, because wherever you go for whatever degree you are pursuing will likely end up as some of the final moments of formal education you receive in your lifetime. Whatever it is will stay on your record and become one of the first things people look at when examining your profile. Once you’re in graduate school, your undergrad institution no longer matters.</p>

<p>For master/doctorate degrees, check the reputation/ranking of the specific program you’re interest in and go to the most highly regarded program you are accepted into. For professional degrees, go to the most prestigious/well-known institution you’re accepted into. It doesn’t matter if Harvard med isn’t as highly regarded in primary care as Michigan state, go to Harvard.</p>

<p>If you’re highly motivated and ambitious, you’re gonna end up in graduate/professional school anyway, so your undergrad institution won’t matter as long as you keep the GPA as high as possible, distinguish yourself from the crowd as much as you can (you can’t fail if you don’t give up), and follow your heart in doing what’s right for you. If you’re, by any chance, not so highly motivated and ambitious, then you just avoided putting yourself or your family in loads of debt.</p>

<p>Due to the highly commercialized nature of our society in the 21st century, every decision we make and every action we take will have economic consequences, and the fact of the matter is that an undergraduate degree simply does not project enough economic return to warrant accumulating severe debt. Unless your family is rich, that money can be put to better use that will give you a much bigger boost in your future, especially since most students at the undergraduate level are still exploring their interests and capabilities.</p>

<p>P.S. Unless you’re very serious about entering the academia, don’t easily commit yourself to doctorate program, it’s a much longer and more serious commitment than a master’s program and it requires an genuine interest in the academics of the subject. For professional degrees in business/law/medicine, it’s worth the debt especially if you’re accepted at the level of HYPMS, just make sure you’re determined to finish the program.</p>

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<p>I think it’s way easier to get good grades at UVA than MIT in engineering… so consider grad school, you want the grades. If full ride UVA, go there. You can probably go to MIT and have like a 3.5-4.0/5.0 GPA, then it’s harder to get into grad school whereas with the same amount of effort, you can get better a gpa at say, any public school.</p>

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<p>I disagree with this ^ perspective. </p>

<p>I am not well-versed with MIT- but, in general, schools like Stanford are guilty of grade INFLATION*, and not deflation, as UriA702 mistakenly reported. This is in order to maintain the shiny reputations of their “top” students (it is MUCH harder to fail out of a top private school than a top public). Top publics have more “weeder” courses, and grade deflation, in an effort to separate the grain from the chaff. </p>

<p>*[Some people have a problem with grade inflation; I, however, am not one of those individuals. I rather prefer the security of knowing that my hard work and commitment will be met with success… instead of having to fight 30 other kids for the 3 A’s that will be given (I think that if everyone in the class works for an “A”, then it should be within the realm of possibility for all of them to achieve it). There is much less anxiety involved when you know you will be judged gently, and the environment much less hostile. You are then free to focus on your work- instead of blowing all of that focus on your grades.]</p>

<p>MIT’s engineering program is tip-top, and much stronger than UVA’s… but UVA has an excellent reputation across the board. If it’s going to cost you $200K to go to MIT, then it is not worth it… especially if you are going to go on to grad/professional school (add another $50 to $200K to your running total, and you’ll be anywhere from a quarter of a million to almost half of a million dollars, after interest, in debt). This would take you FOREVER to pay back, especially if you go into academia, etc. If you really don’t want to be someone who is hung up on how much they make- then I would advise you to RUN from serious debt. It is the fastest way to make your life revolve around money. </p>

<p>If you can get great financial aid, then MIT is a better choice for what you want to do.</p>

<p>(FYI, I’m generally in the same boat as you: I narrowly missed being admitted into Stanford from my community college [NOVA] for this fall, and I am trying to decide whether to just go and finish my undergrad at UVA, where I will probably be admitted for this spring, or to pass up the sure thing in order to see which private schools I can get into for fall '08. Tough decision…)</p>

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<p>I fail to understand how it would cost ANYONE $200K unless your parents have an EFC of 50,000 and are not willing to pay. If you’re poor, MIT (or any other top school for that matter) has fantastic fin aid.</p>

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<p>“I fail to understand how it would cost ANYONE $200K unless your parents have an EFC of 50,000 and are not willing to pay. If you’re poor, MIT (or any other top school for that matter) has fantastic fin aid.”</p>

<p>It’s not that hard. Middle class families, especially those who are self-employed and have various assets, have complicated financial situations that can drive the EFC past what is reasonable.</p>

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<p>I personally have multiple friends whose parents make good money effectively disqualifying them from any aid but doesn’t have particularly good savings.</p>

<p>People try to make a living and try to raise a family the best they can, but not all of them have good finances.</p>

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<p>“I fail to understand how it would cost ANYONE $200K unless your parents have an EFC of 50,000 and are not willing to pay. If you’re poor, MIT (or any other top school for that matter) has fantastic fin aid.”</p>

<p>Agreed, the Ivies etc. DO have great fin.aid- but the OP never mentioned that he was “poor”. </p>

<p>I’m an independent student myself… but my younger sisters get the short end of the stick: my dad makes over $200K, but has 5 children still at home, and a wife, and the cost of living where my parents are is high. Divide $200K by 7, and factor in the area’s high costs and also TAXES, and his salary just covers the bases. But on paper, my father is “rich”. So my sisters get NO financial aid, and as a result, my parents spend over $60K on education ALONE every year(and climbing, as more of my sibs go to college). Someone who makes half as much money in a low cost of living area probably lives more comfortably and has more disposable income available.</p>

<p>See where I’m going with this? If the OP’s anything like most of us, he or she probably doesn’t have the money to pay for a private like MIT, and they also probably don’t qualify for enough aid to really close the gap between MIT and UVA.</p>

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<p>Bait&Switch is correct on all accounts. My financial situation is actually opposite his family’s, but the outcome is the same. We have a comparatively low income (less than half 200k, you do the math) but rather high assets. The fact that my parents have been saving all their lives and will be retiring in less than five years (and thus drawing from those savings) is apparently not factored into whatever equations fin-aid offices use: all the online calculators we’ve plugged numbers into have spat out ridiculous EFCs. </p>

<p>I guess by some twisted logic the EFC is correct… could we afford a 200k education? Technically, yes. But realistically, not really.</p>

<p>Of course, in my case the decision will probably be made for me, as I doubt I’ll get into MIT. But it’s an interesting topic nevertheless. Financial aid is supposed to open up an “elite” education to the widest range of socioeconomic situations possible, right? And yet the prohibitive price tag and lack of aid still excludes a large portion of the middle class from attending, in favor of the much small portions of the population bell curve: the extremely rich (who never needed aid) and the extremely poor (who get full aid). </p>

<p>I guess it makes sense, from a university’s point of view. Meet 100% of need and spend the least money doing so. The lower your income, the higher your aid. But lower income also correlates to lower academic opportunities, so very few academically qualified “poor” candidates actually apply.</p>

<p>Am I saying that someone from a low-income family with the stats and aptitude shouldn’t get aid to go to a top private? Of course not. Someone who managed to come out of a crappy HS with higher SATs than some rich kid who went to boarding school and had a private tutor certainly deserves the same opportunities. </p>

<p>But the fact remains that a kid who went to a mediocre rural high school and who doesn’t want his parents to live in poverty 20 years from now because he broke their retirement savings deserves opportunities too, doesn’t he/she?</p>

<p>But whatever. Life isn’t fair. Ignore the ramblings of a bored student waiting for his next class to start. :)</p>