<p>I am curious about this--I am getting ready to send my second child to college, and we have made all the visits, contacts, ect, as we did with my first. It seems that the more "elite" a school is. the worse we were treated by the administration or the admissions people. The very large, public schools went so far out of their way to welcome us, answer questions, give tours--they sent us numerous letters of congratulations, planned overnight visits, conferences with professors, student question and answer programs--in both of my childrens cases, I have been blown away by how accommodating they have been. The very prestigous schools, however, always act as if we are lucky to even be spending time on their campus. The tour groups are always very large--and we have never been able to spend time talking with profs or deans about the various programs. When my D asked about a certain major, they looked ascance and said that at their school you can major in english or history but NEVER communications It also seemed to me that the student guides never looked as happy at some of these places, and when asked what they planned after school it was always law school, med school or MBA. I never said anything to my children as I didn't want to influence them. but I sure felt like something was missing. I am curious as to how people are treated after being accepted--is it still a "hands-off, just be honored that you were accepted" mentality, or are students and parents treated as customers and made to feel important?</p>
<p>I cannot comment on all "elite" schools, but those I know of tend to be liberal arts schools, so there are no majors such as business and communications. It's not a brush-off, just a statement of fact. </p>
<p>My S visited Princeton, Yale, Brown and Columbia, making appointments by email beforehand and met several profs and chairs of departments. At Princeton, the director of undergraduate studies took him to the daily departmental coffee hour where my S saw one of the most famous profs engaged in conversation with some undergraduates. He looked up the profs' office hours and class schedules and tried to arrange his visits accordingly. The tour groups were large, but that is a function of the popularity of the schools.</p>
<p>Harvard is known for not providing a lot of hand-holding. Some students miss it, others prefer it. Princeton is supposed to be far more focused on undergraduates, though S has in general been happy with the attention and support he's got at Harvard. Top LACS such as ASWP are known for providing great support.We did not go on tour there so cannot report on how large the groups were. S found friendly students everywhere he went but reported the happiest seemed to be at Brown.</p>
<p>That has not been our experience with MIT at all. We were made to feel welcomed and honored while visiting campus, and part of a larger family from the time S was accepted two years ago. Personally-signed holiday and Valentine cards arrived during his decision-making period, and after his decision the communications were just as personal and helpful. Our experience with Columbia was similar, even including individual tours of two departments by their chairs when we visited. On the other hand, the large public schools to which the same S applied and was accepted (in the UC system) were completely hands-off, with huge tour groups concentrating mostly on sports prowess and reserved parking spaces, and there was no personal contact with him at all.</p>
<p>This is just our anecdotal experience, but I don't believe you can generalize about this in any way.</p>
<p>I don't know what colleges you were referring to, but am answering describing Harvard because that's the one that I'm most familiar with that fits your description of being elite with large tour groups, etc. </p>
<p>If a college is getting 20,000 or so applicants for 1,200 or so places as is the case for Harvard and also is a tourist destination, tour groups will be huge, and deans aren't going to be able to spend time meeting individually with applicants.</p>
<p>Places like Harvard attract lots of students who want to be doctors and lawyers. </p>
<p>Students who want to major in a subject like communications or journalism that would lead directly to a job should apply to schools that pride themselves on graduating students who immediately have the skills and credentials to enter the job market in the area of their choice. That's not what places like Harvard view as the purpose of the educations that they offer.</p>
<p>When it comes to Harvard, it is not a hand holding type of place, but is a delightful place for students who are very independent and want to run with their talents, interests and ideas. Students who would prefer to be on a campus where, for instance, the professors are often seen lunching with students, and the college values itself on being nurturing and helping along the unselfconfident and late bloomers would be better off applying to colleges that provide that kind of atmosphere.</p>
<p>I also can add that from what I've seen of state flagship universities tours, one finds similar situations: Tour groups are huge and the campuses don't seem like the type where students get lots of hand holding. As for applicants, usually they don't even get to be interviewed since interviews typically aren't offered at public universities. One can, however, major in fields like communication.</p>
<p>recfn - below is your previous post:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I had to laugh when I read about all the letters sent from places that are close to impossible to get in. We were invited to a presentation given by a few of the "elite Ivy" schools who spent the evening wining and dining us and telling us how wonderful their schools were--and everyone was oohing and ahhing and fawning over the presenters, and I finally stood up and asked them why they were spending the time and money traveling all over the country selling their schools when they end up accepting a very, very low percentage of applicants. They looked at me with a little smile, and said that they want to receive lots and lots of applications from all over the country, and this is how they do it. I agree that it looks good for them in U.S News rankings when their percentage of acceptances remains low. I also have a friend from an Ivy that was asked to donate one dollar to the school--it also helps the rankings when there is a very high percentage of alumni donating to the school (it doesn't matter how much) so everyone was asked to give at least one dollar.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It seems that on the one hand, you find fault with what you call "the elite" schools when they are being friendly (and see them as just trying to raise their ratings), yet here you seem upset that the red carpet was not rolled out for you. Are you sure you don't just have a problem with elite schools?</p>
<p>I smell a troll.</p>
<p>I don't think that's being a troll. I think that's calling out "elite" schools for being condescending, pretentious, and pompous...both examples are the same side of the coin. The schools are doing what they can to retain or raise their high status, while at the same time feeling that they don't have to woo students because of that very same status. Of course the catch is that they are working the system and the status is, to some extent, falsely acquired.</p>
<p>I've done this six times now, and my experience (with some exceptions, of course) has been exactly the opposite. The large state schools we've visited have generally been polite but distant. Our warmest welcomes have come from places that, frankly, I didn't think would care all that much about just one more applicant.</p>
<p>Go figure.</p>
<p>I think colleges are traveling more because they truly believe that it is worth spending their limited budgets on getting those great, stellar (and admissable!) kids out there to apply who wouldn't have before. They aren't traveling more to just bolster volume - that's a poor return on their investment and most schools know this as they have been doing it for decades now.</p>
<p>We've only been through the process once so far, and visited about 10 schools. I can honestly say that we were treated well at each school and found people to be generally pleasant. Some tour guides were better than others, but keep in mind that they are kids. We found that the "elite" school admissions people were very considerate, especially at the Ivy's we visited.</p>
<p>I guess I've never experienced "wining and dining" by any school - except those in which my kids were accepted - during admit days. And sure, they're going to put on their best face to get the kids they want to enroll. All colleges do that.</p>
<p>I've been to several traveling road shows by groups of selective and less selective schools, and they were fairly spartan events. Talks, slide shows, questions, and a chance to hear how they were similar and different from one another. My kids learned a few things from these events. Maybe not a lot, but enough to cross a few places off their lists.I also didn't hear any oohing and ahhing from the parents or kids - just listening and learning.
It's also not deceptive of them to say they want kids from all over the country; that's a fact.</p>
<pre><code>As far as the tours went, they varied, but we certainly never felt like we they were doing us a favor at any school. Most were led by kids, a couple years older than my own. Their styles were diverse and unpredictable, but that shouldn't be surprising. We always came away with a pretty good feeling about the places we visited, even if they weren't a good fit for my kids.
</code></pre>
<p>I'm sorry, but when a new poster comes on (only two posts), both which make sweeping generalizations about all "elite" colleges, I do suspect one is either a troll, or one really bitter parent.</p>
<p>I also think it's unrealistic to expect professors to engage in visitor's tours. It's possible to go to colleges during their open house days and meet several professors. We tried to do this as much as possible. But the prof's job is teaching the current students, not being available for tours and admission's events.</p>
<p>The only admissions office with which I wasn't satisfied was the one at the only state school to which I applied. </p>
<p>I agree with the what the other posters have said, for the most part.</p>
<p>Princeton especially, and I'm sure harvard and yale as well, pride themselves on not teaching applicable skills like communications, but rather teaching you how to think, so that when you get into the job market you have the ability to learn the task. The majority of the classes are theoretical in nature. If you want a major that leads directly into a career or to practical skills, then the ivy league is not where to look.</p>
<p>That's one reason why I like where I go - they tend to treat you more like a customer rather than a nuisance. </p>
<p>I'm not saying that schools should take the standpoint that the "customer is always right" but considering how much some places cost, I'm not surprised that there's more outreach and helpfulness to prospectives - sooner or later people will demand it.</p>
<p>But you can imagine - if a school treats prospective students poorly, imagine how they're going to treat them as attendees.</p>
<p>I've visited more than a dozen schools with my daughters (not very impressive in this crowd, I know), and we've only encountered one condescending school rep in all that time. Most of the schools would be considered elite, whether larger publics (UVA, UMich, UNC), mid-sized private schools (Vanderbilt, Duke, Brandeis), or Ivy League (Cornell). I've been very impressed with how welcoming and approachable both the adreps and the student tour guides have been, particularly considering how very many prospective students they see each year.</p>
<p>In our experience only, the most welcoming and attentive staff was at Brandeis. The one offputting adrep was at Duke, but the exceptionally warm and personable student guide quickly reversed our negative impression (especially when she brought us to her own room to show us what the dorms were like).</p>
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<blockquote> <p>The very prestigous schools, however, always act as if we are lucky to even be spending time on their campus. The tour groups are always very large....<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>I am currently visiting Harvard for Jr. Parents Weekend, and yesterday I saw an amazing thing: a Harvard tour group that consisted of the guide and exactly THREE people - basically one family. Of course the main reason was probably the fact that it was in the middle of a winter storm with pouring freezing rain. Nevertheless, the guide was doing his best. The family appeared to be getting the full tour with all the regular stops, stories, and jokes.</p>
<p>Back when we were touring campuses, the selective schools did indeed have large tour groups. But the guides and admissions people pretty much all seemed very gracious and polite and glad to have us there, including Harvard. I had my snottiness antennae tuned very high that day to detect any whiff of condenscension, but they were fine.</p>
<p>The most obnoxious, "how dare you think you're qualified to go here?" type admissions officer my kids and I encountered was at Columbia. The nicest and most welcoming was at Brown. Similar levels of prestige and selectivity; different approaches. I never did figure out, though, whether the difference lay in the personalities of the universities or of the specific individuals whom we encountered.</p>
<p>Marian:</p>
<p>S had a totally opposite experience at Columbia where he met one prof for nearly one hour, sat in on another prof's class ("really exciting!") and generally had a great time. It's very hard to generalize from a single day or a single individual what a whole institution with hundreds of profs, administrators and thousands of students will be like.</p>
<p>I think it's really hard to generalize on this stuff. I'll share our experience - although it may differ from others based on a particular tour guide or day (Easter week tends to bring out the crowds for example).
We visited a couple of elite colleges - Duke, Penn, and Georgetown. The tour group at Duke was HUGE but the guide was very friendly and welcoming. At GT, we got stuck with a "robotic" tour guide. Not a great tour. At Penn, I DID find the group session to be snooty. Go ahead and apply if you'd like but keep in mind, we VERY popular and VERY selective. And it seemed to emphasize pre-professional tracks. Tour guide was very nice though. Overall, though, the general session left a bad taste...<br>
We LOVED our tour at Tufts. The session focused on the importance of learning and finding your passion. The student guides were exceptionally friendly and the campus was beautiful.
Our state school visits varied. I found the UVA general session to be a bit pretentious - with a big focus on how many apps they get and how hard it is to get in. UNC had a friendly, folksy approach but the tour group was large.
PSU had a rather large group, but our tour guide was very bright, and enthusiastic and seemed to know almost every one he saw ( how can that be on such a huge campus?). What was great though was our tour of the honors college. They gave us a lengthy one-on-one session with the admissions coordinator and then a full tour of the facilities. They really encouraged us to apply - seems that they know who they were competing with and that they had to try harder. My son left feeling wanted.<br>
State vs elite? Don't think there's a real pattern. But I do think some of these ultra selective schools present themselves in a way that turns off some buyers. There's a fine line between pride and arrongance...</p>
<p>I wonder if it's arrogance or trying to instill a dose of realism. Earlier, we did an admission session at one of the very most selective LACs. The tour (specially for us as we knew a student there) was absolutely wonderful. It made us all salivate. Then we went to the admission session. I was a bit turned off by the "it's very hard to get in" message, repeated several times. But in retrospect, it was a very useful message for the dean of admissions to convey. It was not in the least inaccurate. </p>
<p>So if HYPSM adreps convey the message that only around 10% of applicants get in, is that arrogance or a gentle reminder that getting admitted there will be hard and that applicants should consider applying elsewhere as well?</p>
<p>I expected Harvard to be a bit snooty. In contrast, I found everyone there to be kind and welcoming. During the admissions session, of course there was a discussion regarding the number of applications received. But the woman presenting said that SOMEONE had to be accepted, so why not try? I felt that they went out of their way to be accessible to visitors.</p>