<p>P3T’s experience is <em>exactly</em> why I would steer for the reach school.
Great story, P3T…first hand instead of my more theoretical projection.</p>
<p>Another voice here for the first-choice reach. When I read p3t’s story, I thought, “geek_son, is that you?” My son’s at a college that’s a great fit socially and a “reachy” fit academically (he has the capacity, but his peers have much more HS background than he does). So far, the experience has been wonderful for him – the first half of the semester was a rough adjustment, but he’s grown tremendously as a result. And he’s motivated to keep it up because he loveloveloves where he is. He’s already had the experience of being a high achiever among partier types – in high school, which he was happy to finish and leave behind. Now he’s rising to a higher challenge and gaining confidence as he goes. It’s tough to see how tired he looks when he comes home, but it’s great to see the transformation… and after all, some sleepless nights now are good practice for when he has kids. :D</p>
<p>One word of advice from the hard side of his experience: Make sure your daughter takes advantage of tutoring sessions, writing centers, and other academic support from day one. She can give it up if she finds she doesn’t need it, but it will make a big difference to get off to a strong start.</p>
<p>More anecdotes. (All from Harvard.)</p>
<p>Brother from a very good prep school (they thought he was brilliant) got an A, B, C and a D. Freshman year. </p>
<p>Sister-in-law from a terrible public school - had never written a paper in her life. Flunked two courses first term. Went home in a panic, took some classes at U of Florida, bored stiff she returned to Harvard to graduate with honors.</p>
<p>
Roger that.</p>
<p>D learned in 9th grade to seek help when needed. Lots of students at reachy kinds of colleges need help, particularly the first year. To use a baseball metaphor, in the beginning the speed of the pitching is kind of a shock to many. Students used to hitting 'em out of the park with 80mph curve balls start sweating when 96mph fastballs and 90mph sliders on the corner start coming in.</p>
<p>A wise friend who had 5 kids go through this gave me good advice…if a child is happy socially, but struggles academically, she will be happy at the school…if a child is happy academically, but unhappy socially, she will be unhappy at the school.</p>
<p>A student can always find a study group at a school where she has friends…finding a study group is much harder when you don’t! One can always get a tutor for a hard class…you can’t go to an office and arrange for a group of friends.</p>
<p>And your daughter probably will do just fine at her “reach” school. They admitted her with full confidence that she will successfully handle the academics. She will not be going to classes or across the quad with a scarlet “U” for Unqualified on her forehead. She will fit right in with the majority of students in the middle of the pack—and she might surprise you and excel. </p>
<p>When my oldest son matriculated at Emory 7 years ago, the Dean said “90% of you graduated in the top 10% of your class in high school…I can guarantee that 90% of you will not graduate in the top 10% of the class here. But you will all learn and grown and be excellent students.”
I tempered my expectations…but my son exceeded them, graduating with highest honors. And he did not enter at the top of the class.</p>
<p>I also have an anecdote - - the flip side of P3T’s experience.</p>
<p>Friend’s D transferred to her dream/reach school (Wesleyan) based on A/B grades a top 30 LAC (but considerably lower-rated that Wes). Friend’s D is now reeling from B- grades at Wesleyan and upset that she does not have the gpa for certain programs, most significantly junior yr study abroad (application based solely on Wesleyan grades). She will graduate and will likely participate in a 6week summer abroad prgm - - but those are very different than the semester or full year programs (and the summer prgm comes with an additional fee beyond what the parents are paying for tuition). </p>
<p>The lower gpa at the reach school is not necessarily just a matter of the student’s ego. What if a student doesn’t have P3T’s option of taking all soph classes pass/fail while she finds her sea legs? A handful of B-/C+ grades is fine if the BA is your terminal degree, but could pose a problem if one is interested in a field that requires grad school.</p>
<p>(TheDad, correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t Smith require a gpa of 3.0 for study abroad? And don’t students interested in jr yr study abroad apply based almost solely on first year grades?)</p>
<p>Thank you for all the great feedback, it is appreciated and very helpful.</p>
<p>The one issue that I forgot to bring up is the impact of D’s chances for grad school if she graduates from dream school with a lower GPA than her other option. I know people always say that the grad schools know that certain colleges are tougher graders and take that into consideration but I am not sure how true that is. If her ultimate goal is grad school, I wonder if going to dream school hurts her chances if her GPA suffers. The rigor of the school may have helped prepare her better than her other option for grad school but what good is that if you can’t get admitted due to GPA? </p>
<p>I did find out today that the internships and reserach opportunities at her dream school are not based on GPA. We had worried that she might not be able to take advantage of these programs, which is main reason for her attraction. Well, we have less than 10 more days to make a decision but I think we are leaning towards her dream school.</p>
<p>BobbyCT: Those are all good thoughts. Not to sound know-it-all (well sorry, maybe I do sound it, but I definitely do not know it all, but that doesn’t keep me from having opinions) I think you may be over thinking things.</p>
<p>You can account for every eventuality, and your D might actually end up with a higher GPA at higher ranked school. It happens.</p>
<p>If your D has a stated preference, I think that should settle the matter. If not, she should research those aspects of college life important to her until she does.</p>
<p>When I look at my kids GPA’s at very elite schools and wish they were just a tad higher (both are very respectable but just that) I wonder how I’d feel if they had these GPA’s at lower ranked schools. That happens too.</p>
<p>^ mythmom, I am sure I am over thinking things. “Paralysis by analysis” is a good description of me.</p>
<p>BobbyCT, it’s great that your family has begun researcing programs/opptys a the reach school - - but I would do the same for the second-choice school (lower gpa at the second-choice is also a possibility). If it were my D, I’d want to know what each school requires in terms of geneds and distribution requirements. Also, even though the reach does not require a specific gpa for internships/research, how do the two schools award funding? At some schools, internships funding is very competitive (gpa a factor), at others it is available to everyone.</p>
<p>As for grad school, friend’s D has already been told by her Wesleyan advisor that, she is unlkely to be admitted to top grad programs (especially since she never does well on standardized tests). By no means is grad school out of the question or beyond her reach; and, if she applies, she might still make it into one of the top programs. Or she can work for a couple of years to enhance her app – but admission is understandably less likely with 3.1gpa than a 3.7gpa. </p>
<p>Still, since there is no gaurantee of a higher gpa at the second choice school, I’d go with the reach, unless a lower gpa forecloes an important undergrad oppty.</p>
<p>My thought is that both schools admitted her. What is the freshman return rate at the higher ranked school? If it’s high (and most high ranked schools have freshman return rates of over 80%) then most students who are admitted and chose to attend there, remain there. If the school saw something in her app that makes them think she is a good fit and chose to admit her, then I’d say don’t second guess their decision and assume she’s going to have a hard time excelling.</p>
<p>Regarding grad schools- there is life outside of the top programs. We would be in real trouble of only the top 5 or so programs were allowed to teach grad students. being bored and unhappy socially can be worse than happy and busy. Remember that EC’s don’t count in college- they are for personal enjoyment, not getting into grad schools (there’s no place to list them and the statement of purpose isn’t for telling about them).</p>
<p>^ foolishpleasure, we have not looked into the research and internship opportunities and her second choice as much as we should have so I appreciate that advice. I will also check to see if that school has any GPA requirements for research/internships. That could make all the difference. Great feedback. We did sit down and review the General Education requirements at both colleges and they were very similar. </p>
<p>^robD, we did look at the Freshmen retention rate and according to each colleges 2009-2010 Common Data Set, dream/social fit has a 92% retention rate while her academic fit has a 90% retention rate. (although I think it might have been rounded up) Both similar.</p>
<p>As MM pointed out, you can’t predict college GPA by rank of HS GPA of entering cohort. No question you have raised, no data point, has given me any impulse to suggest that your D <em>not</em> go for her dream school. If you can’t take a chance on a dream when you’re 18, when can you?</p>
<p>I wouldn’t even begin to sweat grad school at this point. Do you know the percentage of undergrad students that change majors? Wait until she’s in her junior year before you really start to survey that territory.</p>
<p>Same for worrying about GPA…DON’T. You can see what the range is when she’s a junior and <em>she</em> can start calibrating plans accordingly. Be forewarned that the room for you involvement will be a lot less, to virtually nil, for grad school than for undergrad.</p>
<p>Admission of minor hypocrisy: as things went along, I did worry about grades but never spoke to D about them. It’s silly to worry about graduation awards in the first year but as semester after semester goes by, you can’t help but be aware if certain things are on the table. It turns out that D was highly stressed the last semester, I was highly stressed the last semester, and TheMom would have rolled her eyes…but we never spoke of it.</p>
<p>But sweating the difference between a 3.3 and 3.5, I wouldn’t at all.</p>
<p>A 2.5 would be a different matter but as other have indicated, colleges aren’t setting you up for failure when they admit you. Take Stanford…where the hardest thing about graduating is getting admitted.</p>
<p>Regarding post #30:</p>
<p>It’s hard to know what would have happened in terms of grad school admission if the student had stayed at the original school. Grad program selection committees do take into account the reputation of the school, the level of preparation, the recommendation letters, the statement of purpose and where, applicable, the writing sample. For certain fields, overall GPAs do not count as much as GPAs in the major. A student applying into a top grad program in anthropology is not likely to be tripped up by a C in computer science or astronomy, for instance; and conversely, a student headed into an engineering program need not worry about a mediocre grade in “Silent Films” or Shakespeare’s plays.</p>
<p>^^ Absolutely - - but, at least in the case I cited (admittedly, just one data point), the student is getting no better than straight Bs across the board - - including in her major. I am not advocating for the second-choice school, but for looking carefully before leaping.</p>
<p>Personally, I am in P3T’s camp - - graduated proudly from a top LAC, but w/o honors; attended a lesser prof school, but w/ full-tuition grant. It wasn’t a bad choice for me. Nor has it been a bad choice for my D; she wouldn’t have put forth an A effort anywhere, so I’m happy she’s getting a good education and working hard for her Bs. When she graduates, she’ll have an impressive diploma for the wall. I don’t tear my hair out about the C grades, which pop up regularly, but not too frequently. She hopes to attend grad school, but understands that Yale is probably not in her future. </p>
<p>While my D would be happy with B/B- grades, friend’s D is crushed - - so transferring to Wes, the more rigorous dream school, was not such a good idea for her. If the occasional C is not going to send your student into a tail-spin, I’m with TheDad - - go for it (though as I recall, TheDad, your D is pretty much a straight A student).</p>
<p>FP, yes, she was but I kept doing a blink-microscope thing, extrapolating the college experience she had with a couple of others. Which has led me to be a Messianic zealot on behalf of the notion of “fit,” at least for the many students for whom it makes a difference…I’ll stipulate that I’ve come to understand there are some for whom it probably doesn’t matter, within very broad lines, where they go.</p>
<p>The other thing is that I’ve met several dozen students from D’s college and am active in the local chapter of her college club. (In fact, I’m the guinea pig parent at a prospects party this Sunday, answering parental questions and giving prospects the cover to slip away and talk to current students unhindered by POS.) The students I’ve met represent a broad range, both in terms of background, individual temperament, and outcome. Some of the students who got less than stellar grades still knock my socks off…I’m wowed by them. (Try listening to a Philosophy/Religion major talk over dinner about the political problems of Edwardian England with special attention to India and the development of the German navy, with side commentary on post-Roman Druidical influences in the culture.)</p>
<p>I am absolutely sold on what a “high octane” environment like my D’s school, which most probably would consider to be very good but not quite top tier, can do for a student’s growth and development, grades aside. Not only have I heard the tales of the late night discussions, I’ve eavesdropped on the dinner table discussions. </p>
<p>Again…wow. There’s a benefit to being in that environment, no matter whether your grades are northward of 3.9 or struggling to hit 3.3. And I think if a college admits you, the latter is almost certainly in reach, no matter where you go, except maybe places like Reed, unless you have really bad luck, illness, or just flame out.</p>
<p>D selected the college that had the best “social fit”. She figured that at least that college was very upfront about the workload and rigor so she knew what she was getting into. D also brought up a good point that it was always possible that her other option, the “academic” fit, may be just as rigorous but they just don’t bring it up to potential students. I had not thought of that. </p>
<p>D gets her dream school with the best social fit for her. I know she will do her best to make it a succesful 4 years. Thanks for everyone’s great advice and feedback, it helped us in this decision.</p>
<p>Sounds like a win-win situation to me!</p>
<p>
I certainly understand this concern … however if the reach school is pretty selective I’m not sure it is logical. Let’s go back to the admissions … this school likely had a lousy acceptance rate and tons of qualified applicants and makes statements about being about to select another class of equally worthy students from those accepted. If this is true the “lower” end of the actual admits are not subtantially below the majority of other applicants. In reality the admits will look like the loped off top of a normal curve … there are some are amazing students … but the after those the applicants have very similar potential … potential that is similar to a ton of the rejects also. It is unlikely if your child works hard that they will be overmatched … actually if they work they should do very well (I went to three very selective schools and can probably count on my two hands the number of people I know who worked hard and had a C average or lower). All that said if your child is planning on Med School or Law School and GPAs are vital for admission than a top school can be a tough go … getting crappy grades is pretty inlikely but it might be tough to get 4.0 type grades/</p>