<p>D was fortunate enough to be accepted into her top 2 colleges. In trying to choose between the 2 schools, she has determined that one is a better academic fit while the other is a better social fit. She is having a hard time trying to figure out which "fit" is more important and I would love any feedback anyone has to share on this issue</p>
<p>The "social fit" was her reach school. I don't think she thought she would be accepted there. She will likely be in the bottom 30% of the incoming class in terms of test scores, and number of AP/Honors courses. GPA is in the middle 50%. The concern is whether she will be able to handle the academic rigor of the school. On the other hand, she loves the schools culture and feels she will fit right in with the other students. </p>
<p>The "academic fit" is her second choice. She will be in the middle to upper 50% of the incoming class in terms of test scores and her GPA and advanced classes are also in the same area. The school is also rigorous but not at the same level as her reach school. On the social side, however, this college has more of a party scene and she is not as comfortable with the students as her reach school.</p>
<p>I think both colleges are very similar in terms of academic quality with an edge going to her reach school. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions as to how much consideration to give to the academic or social aspects of a college? Should it make or break a decision? Any help appreciated. Thanks</p>
<p>College is primarily for the education. She should go for the school she feels she will be most comfortable at- she is lucky it is her “reach” school that is the better fit. The school accepted her knowing she can do the work and succeed, she should go there. She is more likely to rise to the challange at the reach school than excel at the distracting match school. The reach school is both an academic and social fit- go there. If it turns out she is actually out of her league she can transfer, if she doesn’t go to her favorite school she will always wonder if she could have done well there.</p>
<p>Going to a party school can be a real drag when you are not a partier. I vote for going to social fit school and working hard with the object being to graduate. Once you gain experience in the job market, your class standing in college is irrelevant.</p>
<p>I appreciate the feedback. It reinforces what I thought but I must admit that the academic intensity of her reach school has me a little concerned. If the students with much higher grades talk about the workload and intensity, as well as the difficulty in obtaining the rare A, it will be that much more difficult for a student with lower qualifications. </p>
<p>D is aware of the reach schools reputation for workload and grade deflation but it does not change her opinion of the college. I guess I worry about the fine line between being challenged and being in over your head. I have seen quite a few very bright kids drop out of college because they just could not handle the workload. Also, how much of the college experience do you lose if you have to spend all your time studying to keep up?</p>
<p>I don’t think my kids ever expected to get that rare A.</p>
<p>I think that your D will have to be wise in budgeting her time. She may not be able to be involved in 18 ECs, but may have to pick choose. I don’t think that that means that she can’t experience college life. Also she’ll have to be aggressive with herself in getting help and support on a regular (or at least timely) basis.</p>
<p>Just because her test scores are in the bottom 30% doesn’t mean that she can’t handle the work. Her GPA puts her solidly with most of her peers academically. Her test scores reflect just the 4 hours or so she was taking multiple choice tests.</p>
<p>How much she has to work to stay afloat will partly depend on what she is studying. Is she an engineer or premed? Those courses of study are more problematic for students without a lot of rigor in high school. </p>
<p>Does she have a good work ethic? If she is the type who has been getting good grades without studying, I’d be more concerned. But if she keeps up with her work she should be OK.</p>
<p>And there is nothing wrong with getting more Bs than As in college, and even a C every now and then.</p>
<p>The college would not have accepted her if it thought she was going to fail. While academics are important, so much of the college experience is social – the dorm life, extracurriculars, etc. – that my inclination would be to go for what you called the social fit.</p>
<p>The peer component of education is often overlooked, imo. Since her social fit is happens to be on the educational, rather than the party side, I think she should go where there are like minded spirits. My D went to a school that’s not-quite-top-tier but there were very few slackers and I was impressed in conversations with the students who were merely “average” at this school.</p>
<p>I also confess that my D’s after-college experience has shifted my opinions some on the issue of a school’s “rep” in the job market. The “reach” school may pay off several years from now.</p>
<p>I would encourage your D to still work as hard as possible and be a demon about time management, picking and choosing among non-academic EC’s. My D had it easy…going from 18-20 hours/week of ballet in 12th grade to 4 hours/week of ballet in college made for duck soup, even with much more rigorous and demanding courses. But she observed classmates who came from weaker high school preparation who struggled for the first year, particularly with the standards expected for written work.</p>
<p>The academic difference is primarily in the minds of people on CC and due to a lot of marketing and ranking systems that mean diddly in the classroom. Its grossly overrated and I find it frustrating to read. The students I taught at Ivy were honestly no different than the students I taught at state. I and my colleagues at say the top 50 schools (I’m just making that number up but you know what I mean) use the same cases, texts, materials…</p>
<p>Whether she’s in the bottom 30% or middle 50% is not going to make a difference. Sure we can take some schools and find giant differences between them, but just because a school has a higher selectivity rating or higher mean SAT score, but it doesn’t mean its more rigorous or the students are smarter or the workload is greater. That just simply isn’t usually the case.</p>
<p>Whether your D can keep up with the more challenging academics also depends on her temperament. Does she enjoy challenges or do they make her feel insecure? If she has a healthy competitive streak, the harder school will probably be fine. I agree with others who say that the school wouldn’t have accepted her unless they thought she could do the work. For what it’s worth, I’ve met students from the local Ivy (where I live) and they are certainly not across the board geniuses. Even at the top schools, there is a range of abilities and interests.</p>
<p>You are living in this bubble community 24/7. Being comfortable is paramount. I’m a big believer that mental health effects all aspects of life.</p>
<p>Also, if she is comfortable and it is a non-competitive environment classmates can easily become non-paid peer-tutors just be having some nice study groups.</p>
<p>If she goes into the process expecting the academics to be tough then I urge she seek out all the help possible from day 1 – learning center resource, office hours, etc.</p>
<p>Of course all our advice here means nothing. She really needs to spend a night at each school.</p>
<p>This situation calls for an overnight and sitting in on classes. Test scores may not tell the full story about how rigorous the classes will be.</p>
<p>The social fit that is more academic may actually have a more laid back teaching style.</p>
<p>I would send my kid to whichever of the two inspires her and makes her feel, “Hey, I’m home.”</p>
<p>interesting topic…I have wondered how kids do academically in scenarios where they are accepted at their reach schools having lower stats than most others. Many dream of being accepted into the tougher reach school…but is it a wise decision? Are they starting off at a disadvantage?</p>
<p>D has done an overnight stay at both schools and has spent a considerable amount of time at both attending classes, meeting with professors,etc. She has done about as much due diligence as possible. </p>
<p>I agree with the comments of the importance of “being comfortable” and the “peer component of education is often overlooked”. You would think the more comfortable and happy a student is in their surroundings, the more likely they will have academic success. </p>
<p>I think one of things that has kept her from commiting 100% to her reach school is the fact that her second choice was very aggressive in pursuing her and offered her a substantial scholarship. She was flattered by the attention. Tuition is not the main consideration, however. I am personally neutral on her choices and think they are both outstanding LAC’s. (In fact, my personal choice for best fit did not make her top 5. Sigh).</p>
<p>If your D believes that nothing less than an A matters, and that her job in college is to replicate her HS experience, than being in a more academically oriented environment (it’s not all about the stats however) may prove to be too frustrating for her.</p>
<p>There is a sad thread going now from a kid at Yale who feels like a failure and is questioning his ability to get into med school after a solid but not outstanding first semester Freshman year. If this sounds like your D- it’s worth considering.</p>
<p>For a kid who expects to work hard, won’t be rattled by the occasional C, will rise to the challenge once she understands the expectations, etc I would endorse a more academic environment, especially since that’s the better social fit. At the end of the day, it is easier to raise the game on your academic performance than it is to remake your personality to become the party-hearty type if that’s not where your interests lie.</p>
<p>I also think your D needs to better understand her own college preparation. If she’s been “phoning it in” for the last two years, college (any college) will come as a shock. Does she read for pleasure? Does she write well? Does she ask for help when she’s confused? Is she well-organized and can she juggle multiple priorities without collapsing from exhaustion? All of this will bode well for her stepping it up once she gets to college.</p>
<p>If she’s basically maxed out now in terms of sleep/eat/study, I would be reluctant to encourage her to attend the tougher environment.</p>
<p>But you know her best. And of course, her major, her dorm assignment, even her best friends will have an enormous impact on her ability to rise to the occasion. My freshman hall was mostly pre-med. It was always quiet after 8 pm, and everyone (but me) went to breakfast before their 9 am labs. So although I didn’t have as rigorous a preparation as many of the other kids, I was put into an environment which made it very easy to catch up. Kids participated in lots of activities-- but the dorm was quiet. By Sophomore year I was ready for more social life, but by then I had figured out how to get my work done, be involved, hold down a part time job, and still find time to sleep so it worked out fine.</p>
<p>I really don’t think schools accept kids they don’t think have the ability to succeed. SAT scores are WAY overrated as predictors of freshmen grades. A Harvard Dean once said that they thought anyone with over 650 (might even have been 600) was fully capable of succeeding at Harvard. So much really depends on whether a student is a. willing to choose courses of the appropriate level, b. is will to budget their time and go to class, c. is willing to get help the minute they don’t understand something or have difficulties d. doesn’t put together a stupid schedule (too many lab courses, too many heavy reading courses, etc.).</p>
<p>bobby: I can see by the thread that you are not inclined to name the two schools involved, but is it possible as someone else has mentioned that the “reach” school may not really be a reach at all but rather a “ranking game”? The reason I ask is that I find that those with rigorous HS experiences (even if not in honors/AP classes) may not realize that those in other parts of the country may have had easier HS’s…</p>
<p>If you care to, PM me with the schools…I think I know one of them (the less academic one)…curious as to the one you perceive as “reach”; it may just be that the admissions office attracts those with higher standardized tests; may mean nothing in the scheme of things…agree with above poster (who posted about the SAT’s at the same time I was typing)</p>
<p>Bobby: just saw the list of schools a/o 1/02…while they may have higher SAT’s than your daughter’s on average, none of them seem to be extremely more challenging than the others where your daughter would struggle; I know students of varying ability at all of them; none are struggling ( assuming that B’s are ok)…</p>
<p>As the parent of a soon-to-be transfer, I’m going to suggest social fit. I think if a kid feels like he/she is running with their tribe, then they will find a way to be successful in class.</p>
<p>OKay, here’s an outcome of one (me). Blossom’s paragraph above describes my college career to a “T” at an emotionally/socially/intellectually vibrant LAC for which I was, in today’s terms, probably a low reach. </p>
<p>Freshman year: initial shock of realizing that prep school kids were all better prepared than I to submit college-quality material; tough Intro 101 courses, all small-class lecture/discussions with brilliant faculty. Made B’s C, D+. Did not die but felt badly. </p>
<p>Sophomore year: Took every class Pass/Fail and taught myself how to study properly, think critically, absorb material, and say something meaningful to the professors on essays and exams.</p>
<p>Junior and Senior years: all A’s and B’s; A’s in my major.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, I enjoyed a tremendous feeling of belonging, having friends, and a non-competitive dinnertable culture where it was considered obnoxious to mention grades. All these kept my spirits high. Love of learning was the coin of the realm.</p>
<p>I graduated without any honors, but graduated proudly. To this day, I enjoy having been part of a class that produced other high-flying achievers. I’m on their coattails, in a way. </p>
<p>Had I gone to the place where it felt like I would be the high-scoring person dodging parties, that would have been a repeat of my high school.</p>
<p>As said on CC (who coined it??) “the plural of anecdote is not evidence,” but that’s my anecdote and I’m sticking to it.</p>