Never even crossed my mind. But, then again, I’m not Asian.
I’ve known many a ‘slavish adherent’ and they come in many flavors.
I happened to catch an episode of “Child Genius” the other night. It was like watching an emotional train wreck of pushy parents and over scheduled young kids. Parents were of all ethnic backgrounds. Only one adult–a grandmother who came to see the competition expressed doubt about pushing a child so hard.
My thought at the end of the show was that none of them appeared to be any “genius”. I did hold out hope for one little boy who announced he was just “done with the whole thing” and went to hide under a table. He was the smartest one in my opinion.
This made me laugh. I think kids would have a lot more fun applying to college if they thought more like this and dared to ask a question that might not be considered not PC enough in today’s world.
I’m smiling as I remember that. Totally true story. And I think the admissions counselors loved it. It was totally her (and I loved that she was interviewing the schools for the best fit for her)
College is a business, like it or not. Admission departments are obsessed with ‘yields’ and other arcane stats. They need the $$ to pay for tenured prof bennies, nice digs for the administration, and buildings worthy of Rome. My oldest son went to a ‘top 20’ university. He got a very good, but not great education. Top chaired profs were too good to talk to the students, best were adjuncts who work for practically nothing. Library and admin offices were nice. Freshman dorms were dumps, one room had a floor collapse down a story due to rot. The main cafeteria was closed TWICE in one year by the health department. So much for your $50K tuition. But, he landed OK and has moved on. Now if this prestigious school would only stop sending me expensive mailings begging for money each month…
Some sage advice for parents of boys. Do you REALLY think your son is ready for college? I have one who was, one who wasn’t. Hard to admit that one isn’t ready, so we tossed him into the fray. Big mistake. He has recovered and is doing fine now. In discussing situation with other parents, we came to this conclusion. It is nearly always better to let boys work for a year before moving away to college. Nothing motivates a student like a job in the real world. Also, my son is much more engaged now that he has had a chance to work with people outside his expensive community bubble. Empathy is much higher for all. Also, he sees many of the social problems facing our country clearer since he worked around a lot of different people. Best part is that he sees the vocal ‘Social Justice Warrior’ types at his school for what they really are; self-centered, spoiled, and naive.
Consider a gap year, but not just a gap, but a job year. Go to CC part time to stay in the study habit. It may also change the type of school that is ultimately chosen.
Taking college courses after high school graduation typically means committing to the transfer pathway to a four year school, rather than entering as a frosh. This may be disadvantageous for a student with a strong high school record who can get into more selective schools or get bigger scholarships (these are often much less available for transfer applicants). However, the transfer pathway can be advantageous for a student with a weak high school record, since a good college record can allow more options as a transfer student than the student would have had as a frosh.
Love this because it is so true, much too often:
You have zero support for your statement.
Neither might be.
Both might be.
Either one might be.
Lots of people assume they have found the “secret ingredient” to Elite College Admissions, and so overdo on whatever they mis-conceive is that supposedly single ingredient, assuming they can “control” the outcome. When they do that, they generally get what they deserve.
@FallGirl
Re your post 636, especially this part:
This is the phrase I object to, and possibly (but I don’t know) some other posters also cringe at the equating of only particular institutions with “dreams.” I.m.e. that is a complete idealization of the branding and popularity of certain institutions “versus” others…as if there are genuinely “apart” or objectively better (and few objectively better, in number) colleges/universities.
Such language moves the laudable quest for personal excellence to the emotional realm, and leaves it there. I understand that adolescents experience and perceive emotionally what they consider triumphs and failures, but we adults should have a much more realistic, balanced, and less emotional perspective on decisions which involve an uncontrollable number of factors, by the sheer size of the applicant pool, which includes the globe.
I’m not comparing your child to this situation, but I’ll give you a very different example of lack of realism, which I see much, much too often in the application round. Student comes to me with scores between 530 and 620, has a 3.7 (including some C’s), and has ordinary, unoriginal e.c.'s. Too top it off, he comes across as not terribly bright. Yet the parent has chosen to encourage him to apply to Yale. Yes, Yale. Worse, student thinks he might actually apply in the Early Round. I’m speechless. When I approach the unrelated adult who referred the student to me, I express shock at the first choice. Same adult responds with these exact words, “But it’s always been a dream.”
That’s nice. It’s my dream to be The Duchess of Cambridge, but it is not happening, because grown-ups live in the adult world, not the world of Disney “Dreams” which are merely projections of the imagination.
Back to your (unrelated in content, but related in language) post. I object to 3 things:
(1) placing The Dream in the hands of an institution. The Dream should be only this, regarding college: The most reachable academic and social environment for that student. If there were only 3 or 8 truly fine U’s in this vast land which could fulfill dreams, I could understand the word “disappointment.” But the student owns his or her own dream, which is a dysfunctional dream if it’s limited to particular college names, as if other college names will not allow him to pursue his dream to the max. Also (and again I don’t mean you in this respect), it’s not the parent’s/parents’ dream(s), and even if Junior wants to please parents by living out “their” dreams, it still won’t be his own if that is his motivation.
(2) regarding a rejection (from anywhere) as a statement about the student’s character, ability, intelligence, achievements, or potential; then personalizing that rejection to assume it must be or could be a comment on any of those elements, and (further) expressing defensiveness in the wake of such rejection, even to the point of implying that possibly students of lower character might have leapfrogged over one’s own S or D. All college admissions these days is comparative, so the grand qualities of one student, along with the desires of the institution, are merely compared, in composite, with what else is available. If another student is as empathetic as FallGirl’s child but surpassed him (I think it’s a S; forgive me if I got that wrong) in some objective respect, and you have never met that student (who could be not from your region), you have no basis for assuming that matters other than character decided results that round. Maybe the college lucked out and got Both/And. (It probably did.)
(3) your suggestion --what you seem to suggest by your posts – and again, I’m not trying to be antagonistic; you seem to be saying this – is that some of us parents whose children “won the lottery” don’t understand or can’t appreciate the supposed great emotional letdown of others. Wrong. Did you neglect to consider that some of us have more than one child who went through the process? That Child A may have been admitted to H, Y, P Universities (or all 3, for some of us), yet Child B did not even apply to those same U’s because he/she was not “material” for them, and by that I do not mean capability, IQ, talent, etc. My Child B is ridiculously talented and in fact brilliant, but in a far different way than Child A. Child B would not have mingled well or produced as well at the same U’s to which Child A was admitted. It was my job as parent to recognize those differences and to support a very different child with very different needs and potential than those of Child A. Both children are still On Their Way in the world. The journey is far from over for either one of them, even after graduation. I would think it inappropriate for me to be “disappointed” that my 2 children are not identical.
Even if Child B had chosen to buy a long-odds (in her case) lottery ticket, I would not have been “disappointed” that she still had the choice of thousands of other colleges in the U.S. I have been in this business, watching it and participating in it, as counselor and parent, for many years. My greatest joy is to see a student blossom at any old public college in any old state. The triumph is not the particular admission but the student’s ownership of his direction in life. Some of those are late-bloomers; some chose a “lower-ranked” college that provided significant merit aid. For others, it was their “best” admission; with gratitude, they embraced the opportunity and thrived. Yes, I know others who gained admission (several offers) to very Elite U’s; I’m still in touch with those students, as well, and they are similarly thriving at those Elites. But I wouldn’t say the latter are “doing better” than the others. Each student is not being defined or limited by some artificial, adult-imposed category as to the “worth” of the institution.
Great post epiphany. I think you are right on. However, I also agree that some posters on this board do deride disappointed parents with the “special snowflake” label. The term implies the parent was blind to his/her child’s true caliber as a student and so, in the fog of parental pride, mistakenly thought his/her child was much more special a candidate than s/he is in actuality. This attitude seems contradictory to the CC refrain that there are only so many seats at the top schools. Why can’t it be true that the poster’s child was in truth every bit as exceptional or more as those who did get admitted to the favorite school, but the college simply ran out of space? There’s no need for posters (not saying you) to put down the parent as having been unrealistic or stupid for having harbored too much hope of admission.
Special snowflake is applied to those kids whose parents are sore losers and who know (or think they know) the records of everyone else in their high school so they do a post-mortem on why their kid’s guaranteed spot was “stolen” unfairly by so and so down the road. It’s not applied to kids whose parents have grace and humility.
And of course not being accepted isn’t a judgment other than the college doesn’t have enough slots for all deserving candidates. Isn’t that a “duh”?
This is fantastic advice and really recognizes the reality of the difference between sons and daughters in many cases at this age. We’re grappling with this question and are hedging our bets. However, your advice about a job is very good. My son has had a job for about a year that has required real responsibility, maturity and decision making. He’s already been tasked with more responsibility to help the company meet some goals over the summer. He’s done well with it and I see that as a ray of hope. The mess in his room? Not so much.
Well, maybe. What I observe, though, is that the Chans have not yet learned how to disguise the slavishness. For example, the Smiths don’t push their kids to play the violin. The Smiths will have more varied ECs (even if they are just as scripted). Let me also put it this way: if I were going to totally script my kid in order to get him into a top school, I sure wouldn’t force him to spend a ton of time on something that he isn’t all that good at doing (i.e., playing the violin). This is what the Chans do, however. Whether it’s good or bad is debatable–the reason for doing it is cultural. But if you’re going to follow a soul-crushing script, at least pick a script that’s likely to get you the goal you desire!
Great post Epiphany, particularly the point about the dream being a particular college . And it should also be noted that just because a kid does not choose to apply to a super elite, they may face rejection. Kids with excellent applications, but not quite in the super elite range, may also be disappointed by a rejection from a school with a 30% admission rate. If a student has a well-balanced application list with reaches, they may get a rejection. One of my kids applied to three schools ranked identically with naviance showing he was a likely admit. He got an acceptance, a rejection and a wait list.
Oldinide: I don’t think it is necessarily a good idea for most boys to work for a year before college. For some, yes, a gap year of work can make sense. But staying home to work at the grocery store because it is a good lesson may not have the expected result. Kid may decide not to go to college, may not have the support for completing the applications, and may not really grow in a meaningful way. Many kids have jobs while in high school and can use that experience to understand why college is important. I don’t really get your point about how kids working for social justice are all naive and spoiled. That seems a pretty broad brush to use based on very limited experience.
Loved @epiphany’s post.
Sorry, I don’t think it’s just sons who might benefit from a gap year. I’ve known plenty of young women who wasted time and floundered away their parents’ hard-earned money.
I think every parent should be honest with each child about what they think is a viable experience immediately out of high school. I have one who wasn’t even sure he WANTED to go to college, and I pretty much told him he was going, end of discussion. He’s got three semesters under his belt now and a perfect GPA in an engineering discipline. And he’s happy–although he’s now in the second semester of a co-op job that is extremely demanding time-wise and is making his engineering classes look cushy in comparison. (One post-HS class at the local CC would have eliminated his eligibility for his full-tuition scholarship, BTW, so tread carefully there.)
The other one? I’d love for him to do a post-graduation year of HS, but the school is not being supportive of the idea, even though my son is eligible. We’re hoping a trade school we’ve had our eye on for him will accept him into the program and that he doesn’t blow it if he’s admitted. (This school has age limits for admissions, BTW, so you really have to go on case-by-case basis.)
I have a friend with a son and a daughter. The daughter matriculated to one college (a “Mom’s pick”), which she loved, but she decided after one semester it didn’t have the major she wanted. Off to another private college, where she had to start over from scratch. She graduated in four years but now is back at home trying to juggle nanny jobs with her band’s performance schedule. She really needs a master’s in her field, but how much should these parents be paying for her to “live her dream”?
Her brother, OTOH, is working his tail off at the state flagship where he’s taking advantage of every opportunity tossed his way. He’s not nearly as confident as his sister, and I’d say that humility has served him (and his parents’ pocketbooks) well.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach to finding the right college (or the right timing for college). And the elites about which this thread is focused on are on one end of spectrum where that is concerned. Some folks dream of academic greatness for their child; others dream their kid graduates from high school with a diploma. Often in the same family.
Not to come across as rude towards people who may disagree, but I find it amusing that people are starting to catch on to the fact that the way high school and college are structured punishes those rare individuals with strong, authentic interest in an intellectual domain. Neither system is designed for efficiency of acquisition of long term knowledge and improvement. You jump from subject to subject, never spending enough time in one area to get anywhere significant, there’s all sorts of arbitrary grading criteria and unnecessary obstacles. When I was in high school I was obsessed with improving my French, but classes kept getting in the way. In my second year of college I had had enough paying thousands of dollars to sit in a room with a guy telling me stuff I could have found in a 15 dollar book or on the internet. Dropped out, now I go to college in France where you have all the same pointless obstacles, but without the price tag.
good for you…
BTW, there are MANY colleges that DO allow, indeed expect students to focus on a particular area of interest.
The purpose of HS is to educate students, not all of whom will be going on to college, fyi.
@Hunt - agreed. Parents will choose a “script” that is influenced by their cultural biases. This is true, no matter your cultural background. The Chans follow their script, the Smiths follow theirs. I do not think it is appropriate to assume the Smith script is morally superior, or, from a college admissions standpoint, more authentic. I liked how you positioned the Smith script as a better “disguise.” I have no argument with you there.
If that is it’s purpose, it fails quite impressively at it. Most people don’t really need high school because it doesn’t churn out well educated people anyway. After middle school they should just teach people a trade. For people who want to be researchers or engineers and such things, these are largely things that can be done autonomously through self motivation. Obviously with some system of evaluation, but authonolously nonetheless.
As for college, I find the Bachelor’s degree to be somewhat incoherent. You could learn a mountain of things in your own time and no one would really care until you jump through all the hoops. Go to class, say thing in section, buy the iclickers, pay the thousands of dollars, learn about Argentinian traditional dance to fulfill your GEs, etc. I remember when I was still going to colleg in the US, there were a few kids in one of the history classes who obviously knew way, way more about the topic than even the section leader. They received no recognition for what they had done in their own time, so they were there going through the motions with the rest of us. All this when the only thing you really have to do is go to something like the Youtube channel KhanAcademy and just learn.