I think it is a really sad world when I have to tell my DDs not to open their door to a police officer unless they have called them because they can be assaulted and arrested because they opened the door. That is the lesson I am taking away from this incident.
maybe eventually people will learn that what we continually see is not racist activity, but big government exerting the power that has been granted to it by voters, and maybe people will stop voting to make the government’s ability to exert violence against the people greater and greater.
or, we can keep voting the way we are, and pretend we are stunned when the benevolent government power is used against people that it shouldn’t’ be used against.
Uh, no. That’s why we have a court system that decides what is an appropriate balance between keeping the peace and individual rights. I’m not a lawyer but northwesty’s analysis makes sense from the courses I’ve taken (years ago).
Might I suggest some alternate headlines:
- Play our Stupid Game and win our all expenses paid Stupid Prize
- Roll Tide to the Supermax!
- 3 UA students learn orange is the new Crimson
I’m reminded of a story from my youth. A friend of mine’s mom came to pick him up after he got a beating from a local cop, her question “was he being an a * * hole?” was pretty much a fait accompli and a curt nod settled the issue. Looking back, that should have been a seminal moment in his life.
Certain witnesses have said that the cop opened the door and entered the apartment uninvited seconds prior to the start of the video. Guessing that was why they decided to record it. If that is true, these students’ rights were definitely violated. Let’s find out and confirm facts before we call these kids “stupid” or decide we live in a police state.
You see a kid fleeing; I see a kid scrambling to keep himself from falling on his face. For the record, that dress was white and gold, I swear! 
Seriously though, we’re going to have to wait for the authorities to sort this entire situation out. Until then, I’m going to reserve judgment about what really happened.
In 1968, when I was a teen heading off to college in the Big City, my mother said, “Stay on the street with the muggers. Do not get in the car with the cops.” Her advice was based on the experiences of her girlfriends and herself in the Big City in the 1940’s. Cops have a dangerous job, in part, because there are too many bad ones and, so, no one trusts them.
Yes, in high school, I shot competitive rifle with my suburban team, lead by wonderful policemen, but too many disrespect the law.
I think cops should always try to de-escalate as much as possible. Also agree that cops sometimes will go over the line in terms of using force.
The cops here can be faulted for over-using force once they got the two guys out of the apartment. But based on what these videos show, everything that precedes that is legal. Once the kids voluntarily open the door, what the cops do is legal. That is existing law.
If the cops opened an unlocked door first, then the legal analysis could be different. But still not necessarily illegal – it would depend on the circumstances. But there’s no evidence so far that the cops kicked in the the door in and dragged the kids out of their own home as many have suggested.
After the kids open the door, you pretty much have to conclude that the fault here is almost 100% on the drunk college kids. They think they know the law, but they don’t. Based on their error, they think they have the right to resist the lawful actions of the police. They don’t. The police officers try multiple times to defuse the situation. But the drunk kids (fueled by alcohol, certainty in their incorrect legal understanding, and fundamental rudeness and d-bag-ness) instead escalate the incident multiple times. They physically resist the lawful actions of the cop. They physically threaten a cop doing lawful things.
I don’t think you can fault drunk college kids for not knowing what the law is in a particular situation. But we must fault them for affirmatively and wrongly believing that the law specifically affirms their unreasonable and dangerous actions. And also acting like complete jerks.
If you are going to take a legal stand, you should have some basis for that action. If you don’t know exactly what that law is, then what you should do is act reasonably, calmly and safely. The drunk kids did none of those.
Instead, the kids relied on alcohol and binge-watching TV cop shows to guide their actions. No surprise it did not turn out well. They should be ashamed of themselves. They are responsible for what happened. They are not victims.
With all due respect, @northwesty, you keep making this claim about the students having been fueled by watching too much television, in particular the female student. You may be correct, but as I already tried to point out way back in post #8, one of the students who witnessed the altercation explained that UA’s “student association held a panel in 2014 to advise students of their rights when confronted by police.” It’s also entirely possible one or more of the students in that apartment had taken a class in criminal justice and was simply trying to exert what they believed to be their rights, misguided as that may have been.
Unfortunately, the Tuscaloosa Police Department does not have a sterling reputation and, as with most complicated situations, context matters:
The fact that the chief of police felt the need to reassure the student body that there’s no need to fear his officers is pretty telling. In a perfect world, everyone would trust the police because the police would be beyond reproach. But that’s clearly not the situation in Tuscaloosa.
Lucie – sure, maybe one of the kids attended one of those training classes. Sure the TPD may have some issues. Conflicts between town/gown exist in many college towns. But let’s be reasonable on this.
Who’s legal analysis is more likely to be closer to correct?
Choice A is a sober, veteran police officer who presumably has received many hours of ongoing training in the law of search and seizure. Knowing those laws is basically his day job and profession.
Choice B is a bunch of partying college kids who presumably are impaired from a late night party. Perhaps some of those kids once attended a panel discussion on the relevant legal topic.
Even if the legalities may be somewhat in question (although I don’t think they are) add in the fact that the cop exhibits restraint and patience for quite some time and attempts multiple times to de-escalate before things head south. But the college kids do not exhibit that behavior and refuse many opportunities to defuse the situation.
It is unfathomably STUPID to create a potential life threatening situation because you think you heard something in a panel discussion. If the cop violates your rights, you can get a big judgment against the guy and the PD later. Much better to count your winnings later than risk getting killed today.
One telling thing about the videos. The kids keep threatening and taunting that the whole incident is being caught on tape. The kids think that is going to stop the cops in their tracks. The cops (who apparently are wearing body cams) shrug that off and keep on going.
The kids think that is proof that the cops are illegally acting thugs who don’t care about following the law. But just maybe the reason why the cops shrug those taunts off is that they know they are acting in bounds (at least until the very end). The kids can’t imagine that they (not the cops) are in the wrong. When the cop says on tape “I don’t need a warrant” they can’t imagine that the cop is right about that. But the fact that he does say it on tape perhaps is pretty strong confirmation that in fact no warrant is required.
I’m not disagreeing with you at all, @northwesty, about whose “legal analysis” is likely closer to correct, but I also don’t think you should just assume the kids in that apartment were all drunk out of their minds and/or asking for trouble. I also cannot state unequivocally that they had no reason to fear the police, based on recent history in that city. I’m not prepared to stipulate any of that … yet. Especially given the response of the police chief and UA administration.
FWIW, here’s a local criminal defense lawyer commenting on this. He pretty much confirms what I’ve been saying.
The force used after taking the kids to the ground outside was probably excessive. I’d agree with that. But I think the kids have a lot of responsibility for escalating the situation to get to that point.
But before that point, once the officer says he is making an arrest, then defense lawyer says the cops are allowed to go into the apartment to get the kid. That’s reasonable arrest procedure. And the commands the cops gave to the kids would be lawful commands. Which the kids repeatedly disobeyed. And no warrant is needed to make the arrest.
http://www.wbrc.com/story/30487209/criminal-attorney-explains-your-rights-amid-tuscaloosa-pd-actions
And here we have the perfect analysis of 90% of jerkish behavior. I’m right! I’m sure of it! So you are wrong, and I will keep yelling until you admit it!!! I’ve seen it in business meetings, in government meetings, at restaurants and retail shops, and certainly in bars. The kids didn’t have to be “out of their minds” drunk, or even consciously asking for trouble. They just had to have enough righteous indignation to keep pushing the argument way past the point of reason. (BTW, Thanksgiving is coming. Think of your brother-in-law or crazy uncle here. Not you - you are always reasonable and right.)
Thanks to northwesty for clearly defining the finer points. For the students, all they really needed to know was that polite cooperation (even if you are right!!! and the other guy is WRONG!!!) almost always leads to a better result than belligerence.
Did any of you manage to navigate a noise complaint during your college years? Ever get tazed or locked up? I didn’t, even though I dealt with many jerky cops. You didn’t either.
Probably because I was always cooperative with the cops. And because I didn’t play tug of war with a fellow the cops were trying to arrest. And because I didn’t try to slam the cop’s arm in the door. And because I didn’t have a shrieking drunk girl antagonizing the cops the whole time.
And because I didn’t try to belligerently and obnoxiously play the “I know my rights” game. Especially when I was drunk and didn’t know what the heck I was talking about.
And because I’d know enough to fold my hand after I’d made the cop feel uncomfortable enough to need to call in reinforcements. The whole time the ball cap guy is nattering on about the legalities, you can hear the sirens blaring on the incoming squad cars that are coming as back up.
As a famous fictional alumni of Bama says, “stupid is as stupid does.”
@northwesty I’m sorry, but if you can’t handle drunken, mouthy college kids and a minor physical scuffle without beating somebody who’s already restrained, you have absolutely no business being a police officer. If you get so scared by a minor physical tussel that you have to react by beating somebody who’s retrained after the tussel is over, especially when they weren’t the one wrestling with you, you have no place being a police officer. If you let your colleage beat a restrained person, you have no place being a police officer. All the cops involved need to be dismissed from the force, because they are not cut out for the stresses of the job. University police handle drunken, belligerent college kids all day, and when you deal with young drunks, physical altercations happen. It’s a big part of their job. If you can’t handle that without getting provoked into excessive force on somebody you’ve already restrained, it really isn’t the job for you.
As for blaming the kids, it doesn’t work like that. Nothing the kids did excuses the beat down. That makes the beat down absolutely and 100% the cops’ fault (not just the one doing the beating, but the ones standing by and allowing it). Whether the kids were wrong in their own behavior is irrelevant, because it doesn’t absolve the cops for the beating. The cops need to be held responsible for their choice to initiate or allow the beat down. At most, the kids are guilty of being drunked idiots. We don’t typically beat people for that in this country.
Did you watch the videos?
If you resist or interfere with a lawful arrest, cops can use force. If a gang of drunk people physically threaten a police officer or provoke a physical altercation, the police officer can use force.
In a perfect world, the cops would maintain complete calm composure as they physically dragged the kids out of the apartment and wrestled them to the ground to defuse the situation the kids had been escalating for a long time. Which they were justified in doing.
But then instantly and correctly discern that the two guys (who moments before had been scuffling with the cops) had given up and keep the taser and night stick holstered.
Given the situation, the amount by which the cops exceeded the reasonable limit is actually pretty minor imho. It was over in seconds once the guys are down and cuffed. This isn’t anything like a Rodney King type of situation. The cops should get little to no discipline on this.
We do have a problem with cops going overboard, particularly with people of color. But this case isn’t one of them.
We also have a problem with people acting stupidly and unlawfully around police trying to do a tough job. And then bad things happen because of their behavior. That’s what this one is.
Maybe this is the reason that cops do not want to be videotaped. It sounds Northwesty that you are very knowledgeable about this type of incident and you are probably right about the legalities. When I see this video, I see the police officers becoming very violent and excessive in force. I assume this is a situation they face after every football game and should have been able to de escalate it versus what happened. I think the police were probably acting legally but I think the result is that they lost a lot of the public trust. Again, I will tell my DDs not to open the door.
I dont know all the legalities of arrest but without a doubt the force used by the cops was excessive. Tasor and baton were over the top. If i were on a jury deliberating i could not dismiss taser and baton and the language used by cops regardless or arrest being legal or not. If these students were african american it would be headline news around the country.
@northwesty Again it’s that mentality that is problematic. And there are too many people out there who have it which is why the so called justice system can get away with not holding cops accountable. There will be some faction of people too blind to see past the blue and recognize that cops are not deities meant to be worshipped. This 100% is a case of police going overboard on multiple fronts. The refusal to disclose why they are being detained and the beating. If you could see past the “Blue Lives Matter” bias, you would see that. Believe it or not, cops can be wrong.
Let’s see how you would be reacting if it was your child. I’m sure that South Carolina resource officer was just doing his job when he manhandled a child as if she was a rag doll.
I’m sure I just echoing some thoughts here, but to me it’s not really an either or case.
Yes, the kids were wrong, not particularly bright, and probably acted in a way that led to their arrest.
Yes, there is no reason for the police to keep beating on the kids who were down and effectively restained.
Yes, there should be consequences for both actions.
Yes, the police officers beating the kids is much worse.
Just my opinion…