<p>I am wondering, Mini, what department this could be at Princeton. I understand that precepts do most of the work and lead the discussion in large introductory courses in which the lectures are given by professors, but junior and senior year all students are required to engage in research projects with faculty. The senior thesis in particular, required in every department, is directly overseen by a professor. My sophomore daughter is already doing research in a lab with a grad student and a professor (and will be funded for this summer). She was proactive in looking for the opportunity this year. As someone said, there are so many factors involved in determining any individual’s college experience, I don’t think we can attribute too much to either the size or the prestige of the school.</p>
<p>mythmom, not entirely surprised, knowing the Latin/Greek teacher at our high school!</p>
<p>She and my comp sci guy got along very well.</p>
<p>I had a great experience at Harvard - but my major was small, you had to apply to get in. Every professor I had knew my name and only one professor (the one who knew me best ironically) used TA’s.</p>
<p>“I am wondering, Mini, what department this could be at Princeton. I understand that precepts do most of the work and lead the discussion in large introductory courses in which the lectures are given by professors, but junior and senior year all students are required to engage in research projects with faculty.”</p>
<p>Musicology and Italian Studies. It is NOT only introductory courses. (She has only preceptored one introductory course.) And, no, it is NOT only leading discussions. That’s what I would have thought. But she teaches new material, gives assignments, reads and grades them, gives exams and the final, and grades them as well, and makes “recommendations” on the final grade to the professor. The professor would have no grounds to come to a different judgment. There is thesis work. From what she has seen in her departments, there are no undergraduates engaged in research with faculty outside of their own thesis. That’s what they pay her for. (I can’t say for sure that it doesn’t happen, but it would clearly be an exception rather than the rule.) Note (as previous threads), I don’t think the research thing is always or even often that important - but I think the relationships with the faculty are.</p>
<p>Whether a student has relationships with faculty depends on many factors – and it can be hard to predict whether or not it will occur.</p>
<p>My son majored in computer science at the University of Maryland at College Park. That’s a large department in an enormous research university. Yet my son had no trouble developing relationships with faculty. The department encouraged it, and his outgoing personality helped. He did research with a two-professor research team, served as an undergraduate TA for a third professor, and was personally known to several others. All this even though he wasn’t one of the top students in the department. He had plenty of faculty members to write graduate school recommendations for him.</p>
<p>As someone who transferred FROM Cornell TO Tufts for engineering (<em>gasp</em>), I have to say that the difference is quite pronounced between large and small, and I do not buy the “engineering vs. other subjects” argument (although I do understand why some people would think that). </p>
<p>Most professors at Cornell were into their research and simply did not care one bit about the classes they were teaching to undergrads. TAs did have a lot of responsibility and they were pretty much the ones in charge of the undergrads. </p>
<p>At Tufts, the department is small and every professor knows my name. Professors will bend over backwards to help outside of class, and the entire environment is just so. much. friendlier. The sense of community is leaps and bounds above that at Cornell. I have found the workload to be comparable at both places. I mean, F=ma no matter where you go to school. Sure, companies come from around the country to recruit Cornell engineers, but that doesn’t matter much if you’ve already jumped off a bridge before senior year.</p>
<p>^ I’d pay triple to attend Cornell over Tufts. Also, I find the nested college town atmosphere in Ithaca much nicer, and less stressful, then the Tufts campus. By the way, Tufts was put at #1 as the campus with the worst crime in a recent ‘Daily Beast’ ranking.</p>
<p>Ridiculous story and excuses. If he wants to go to graduate school, he can, whether he comes from a big university or not. </p>
<p>Big university and big classes = prestigious name => grad school.</p>
<p>Small LAC = 1-on-1 attention and great LORs => grad school.</p>
<p>Either way you get to grad school. As someone who is IN grad school right now I can say that you see equal numbers of students who came from both places.</p>
<p>Just want to give another perspective on Cornell. My sister is a Public Policy major there (in the College of Human Ecology), and has loved the professors so far. She got a non-paid position in a research lab, which turned into a pretty well paying summer job. The professor doing the research took the group out to do fun activities once a week, like hiking, white water rafting, and such, and hosted dinners at her house after these activities. Needless to say, she knows her professor very well. As a sophomore, she is still working in the lab for 10-15 hours a week. </p>
<p>Still a great story OP. I don’t exactly think it’s fair to say that LAC’s offer a better experience than ivy’s, but it really is so important for an applicant to find a good fit school.</p>
<p>Interesting thread. I do think fit is important. Some kids want all of the options and activity on a larger campus. I think too, being at a school like Cornell allows the engineers to experience a bit more diversity, as most engineering programs are 75% men. The Cornell campus as a whole is 50% women. </p>
<p>My D is a sophomore in COE at Cornell and loves it. she has good access to her professors and TAs. She did have some issues with large math classes that had lectures taught by 3 professors but only 1 made up the test. If you were not in that lecture, there were surprises on the test that some students felt put them at a disadvantage.</p>
<p>She has a research job that she loves and got the beginning of her 2nd semester of freshman year with no experience. She has gotten a lot of really good advising too. but Cornell is not the place to go where your professors might notice you not being in class. I remember at Dartmouth, they said that some profs will email you if they do not see you in class. Cornell has so many options within the engineering program that she has been able to follow her interests. She also says it feels smaller because the actual College of Engineering is pretty small.</p>
<p>And, she enjoys hanging out with her friends from different majors. She’s a huge fan and happy with her choice.</p>
<p>Does your daughter know of this happening in other departments? I get a very different account from my son’s friends at Princeton who, I think, are in engineering and math.</p>
<p>I doubt she would know directly (except perhaps in the Art History Department). But she does know other preceptors, who say they do the same thing. </p>
<p>Now let’s be clear: I’m SURE there are students who have excellent relationships with a very committed faculty (as they do everywhere). And ones who work rather closely with their advisors on their theses (as they do elsewhere). But I am equally clear that the situation I’ve described is not at all unique, and that there are faculty who don’t know their students’ names until at least their third year, and that faculty depend on their graduate students (who are pretty universally on full fellowships) for research assistance. None of these situations existed at her LAC (or mine). It is what it is. (And to lots of students, it might not make a difference - and since no one student can attend two places at the same time…)</p>
<p>Shows that fit works outside the college world. Despite the tangible irony of the dumb term in this case, a cynic could fail to see the surprising part in a “dumb” one landing a government job, especially in the past years?</p>
<p>True it could be laughable, however, it’s in a fascinating field in DOJ; her work deals with human trafficking issues in Asia; she works in Hong Kong and the job is truly rewarding and amazing. Not a cubicle soldier at all.</p>
<p>Relationships with professors help with first jobs as much as anything else. The major difference is at the prestige universities the employers come to you. But usually unless it is HYP they are looking for top 20%. Think fit is more important than prestige. The happy student usually performs better.</p>
<p>I guess I just find it surprising that an institution (that’s not that large as universities go) that focuses more on u/g education than grad seems, at least in your D’s experience and opinion (and yours), to have very little concern for and interaction with freshmen and sophomores. One reason my son was considering Princeton was <em>for</em> the focus on undergraduates but you paint a different picture.</p>
<p>Well, this will be something for my son to find out when he visits again during the preview weekend. I’m sure he can ask various students for their experiences, too.</p>
<p>I found it (and my d. found it) just as surprising as you do. (She was pretty shocked - not just by being a TA, but essentially doing the things one would usually expect - including grading, office hours, etc. - from the professor). </p>
<p>I have been puzzling for several years - in her department they haven’t accepted an Ivy applicant for five years (and they’ve had dozens.) Is it for lack of engaging research? Recommendations that are tepid (or unknowing?) Lack of language preparation (that’s a biggie these days)? It’s certainly not the quality of the students - we can all agree that the students at all of these schools are (or should be) topnotch. The faculty at all these schools know each other - so they could be recommending each other’s future grad students. Not that it matters particular - her department is so small that it is barely a blip on the radar screen (and we kind of know why they took her, and it had to do with the faculty’s need for someone with her particular language skills in her particular year). </p>
<p>There is, however, something mythical about P’s undergrad orientation. It comes mostly from the fact that they don’t have a med school, law school, and business school. If you took these away from H and Y, the “emphasis” on undergraduate education would pretty much appear to be the same or similar in the ratio of undergrads to those in graduate programs.</p>
<p>(One thing, though: P has absolutely the BEST T.A.s)</p>
<p>The shock might have been the result of the great efforts by some to deny a truth known by all who attend universities that rely extensively on TAs. The denial is often in the form of silly semantics about leading sections versus teaching and other non-sensical arguments to minimize the role played by TAs in the undergraduate education of millions of students.</p>
<p>While there are TAs who do not deserve the criticisms, it remains that the practice is part of the problems that plague our higher education system. A practice that is as widespread at is disgraceful. </p>
<p>Mini -your comments hit me as ironic as many students I know have chosen Princeton over Harvard or Yale because of the reputation that Princeton focuses almost exclusively on its undergrads. D chose Harvard and her peers told her she would be miserable and “on her own”. Reality could not be further from the truth. Freshman year when she expressed interest in research, she was immediately given a research opportunity. Freshman year, she ran into a Math professor, mentioned she was looking for the TA to ask some questions about the proof sets but couldn’t find the TA. The prof spent 45 minutes right then and there answering her questions. At the end of freshman year, she had full professors tell her to let them know if she ever needed a recommendation for anything. I could go on but hopefully you get the picture. Don’t know why but Harvard has been the equal in terms of attention as LACs are reputed to be. Just because of prestige does not mean students will be ignored as many on these boards seem to like to believe. Don’t think there could be a better fit for D.</p>
<p>My son’s experience at princeton would differ from mini’s daughter. Might be because his department is large (economics), might be the profs, might be the residential college, or it might be his personality (?). He had extensive contact within his department, within other departments (he was pre-med, so chem, bio, physics, math) obtained a certificate in hellinic studies (more of a boutique program) and not just with the profs but with other researchers and those they have assigned for junior and senior thesis.</p>
<p>As far as knowing his first and last name by freshman parent weekend the profs we crossed paths with seemed to know him well. (again it could be “who” he is!) We visited somewhat often for home football games (football player) and other occasions. Quite a few of his teachers attended the games as well as other parents so we realized they knew him. </p>
<p>He did not think of any of his preceptors as replacements for the profs but rather in addition to them. He said every little bit helps. When it came to letters of rec he really had no problem getting any for med school or for business school. Doesn’t hurt his thesis advisor, mentor, advisor just won the nobel prize for economics. Prof was tough but always made time for him, still does.</p>
<p>The follow through after he graduated from his profs, administrators and mentors has been a welcome surprise. He sought their counsel for many post-grad issues (continuing research, grad school, finance questions…) They have all been more than helpful.</p>
<p>When we were visiting for graduation the dept chair for the hellinic studies hosted a small party for us and he had personally oversaw all of son’s classes, certificate project and paper. The same was repeated for those profs within his major. I just assumed it was this way for all the students.</p>
<p>Son loved his four years there and is now an alum regional rep/interviewer while a current med student, MD/MBA. Was definitely a life-changing experience for him. School was more than generous financially and made every effort to not have finances (or lack thereof) negatively impact his time there.</p>