<p>Nubs, back in the stone ages before the dawn of the internet, I attended first a BFA film production program in Canada, then j-school, and did some research in critical communications theory, which today would be more aligned with marketing programs but back then was a science degree in communications – so unrelated entirely to programming, history or engineering or anything else we’re talking about ;)</p>
<p>However, my wending career path led me down several paths relating to programming, design and development…first in the context of wire services, broadcast and multimedia and then to the internet.</p>
<p>The internet company that my husband and I currently own has several clientele in the recruiting industry for ENG, so I’ve some insights with respect to IT, CHEM and PE recruiting specifically – and a reasonable number of business associates in software development. (My h is also something of unix-hippie developer who in times past has worked on some interesting projects, including beta-testing autodesk…which makes him OLD from your vantage ;)</p>
<p>I realize that nubs and I can see your point. But once again, we are talking about an undergraduate school education right now. There are no rankings for most undergraduate liberal arts programs, so I usually defer to graduate deparment rankings. The same faculty that teaches graduate students will also be teaching undergraduate students for the most part. A student who attends Michigan will have access to star faculty in all sorts of subfields simply because Michigan is highly ranked in History and has a very large number of professors. </p>
<p>Michigan has over 120 faculty professors in History</p>
<p>So-o-o, let’s remember what this discussion is about - someone who thinks their child might be a History professor. Most of the people commenting on this thread have NO experience with wanting to teach at a college level - it seems to me that most of the undergrads that comment on this forum are either involved in business or engineering - maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what you all make it sound like.</p>
<p>I, however, am a teacher and am married to a college professor, so I think I might know a little bit about what’s best to do for your undergrad and grad degrees for someone interested in being a college professor. Rule #1: you will be in school for a LONG time, so don’t go into debt!! And let’s face it - teaching, even at the college level, is not enough to make you wealthy (without doing some investing, etc.). </p>
<p>If you look at any school’s website listing their faculty, you will notice that 9 times out of 10, it will only list where one got their graduate degree. Why? Because that is what matters most. So can someone that gets a history degree from UA be able to get into a highly-ranked grad program? Of course, they can. Many do. My husband went from a state university into a Northwestern grad program - happens all the time. And he had a full ride at Northwestern.</p>
<p>Now, let’s look at the faculty. I did some research - here’s something interesting. When I started to google “history department university of…” my search came up with TWO schools - Michigan and Alabama! I thought that was funny. Michigan made sense, because my D is going there in the fall, and so I am on UM websites all the time, but I have never done any searches for Alabama - just thought that was funny. Next, I looked at the credentials of history professors at both schools - what did I find? Many Princeton PhD graduates at both schools. Interestingly, UA had quite a few that graduated from Michigan, whereas I did not find one UM grad teaching at Michigan (I didn’t check all of them - a little busy to be that thorough). So, are there teachers at UA coming from good grad programs? Only if you consider UM to be a good school, which I’m sure you do!!</p>
<p>I am not trying to put down all of you who are commenting, but I do think that someone who wants to be a college professor should probably ask others in that field for advice before you ask those who have no experience in that type of program. Unfortunately, there is probably not a forum for those wanting to teach history on CC - maybe she should start one!</p>
<p>“again, you’re applying those rankings too broadly. universities that are “all-around” good do not necessarily have highly regarded MBA programs…”</p>
<p>“Now, let’s look at the faculty. I did some research - here’s something interesting. When I started to google “history department university of…” my search came up with TWO schools - Michigan and Alabama!” </p>
<p>LOL. That’s because I just checked those two schools saxlady! There is no comparison between the two departments for depth and breadth. Also, like I commented earlier, it seems that one needs to attend a top graduate program these days to get a teaching job at a major university. I agree that it’s definitely the grad school that matters the most.</p>
<p>saxlady, the fact that you mentioned that you couldn’t find UM history grads teaching at UM makes me a bit suspicious of how much you know about this topic… you should know that, besides a few exceptions, especially in humanities there is a strong stigma against hiring faculty from one’s own graduate program. in fact, they have a term for it: academic inbreeding.</p>
<p>also, since your husband is a college professor now, i assume that he has a phd, in which case it is assumed that not only did he have a full ride, but he was paid for going to school… what was the point of mentioning that?</p>
<p>in any case, i don’t think this discussion is really adding any value to the thread or helping the OP, so i’m going to stop posting about this topic. i hope that anyone who actually has any vested interest in this researches it both online and by talking to professors/grad students. heeding advice from anonymous posters on a forum like this is often not the best idea.</p>
I have taught at university as an adjunct way back when but that is beside the point </p>
<p>The OP hasn’t been on this thread in aeons, and most recently there was side discussion about the comparative value of the CS programs at UA and UMich specifically.</p>
<p>And re the Google Overlords at work in their algorithmic splendor, gotta love behaviorial(ly) targeted interaction
<p>I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on the undergrad CS programs at the two schools.</p>
<p>Would you have any reluctance hiring a hotshot CS grad from UA who had a lot of internship experience and great recommendations from his employer?</p>
<p>If his code was clean, he was innovative and quick on his feet, (eg. critical thinker who is versatile) I predict my IT recruiter would not have any difficulty recommending or placing him. So in that case, no worries, though said client would be in a better position to assess/respond to that.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to sound wishy-washy, but at the same time, IME, there are <em>some</em> companies out there with decided preferences in where to actively recruit from. There’s a form of intellectual partitioning, rightly or wrongly, that goes on at perhaps an almost subconscious level but that I’ve come to note because it’s a topic of interest to me. </p>
<p>So I suspect if you’re a grad from a top CS program, the assumption is that you have a very high IQ (via high stats to be admitted) and ergo have a particular capacity for critical thinking/analysis. (Though this can sometimes be a fallacy…the same folks will complain that none of their recruits have any common sense :))</p>
<p>Graduating from a well-regarded program may help you get that initial foot in the door to some degree. The rest will be on the results the grad can produce, recommendations from credible sources, and work the grad has produced to date. In other words, it’s a relative variable that diminishes over time. But some programs are stronger in terms the opportunities to produce work and providing the “credible source” aspect.</p>
<p>If we were talking about my son, for example, knowing what I know about my recruiters, I would send him to Michigan for engineering or CS over a lesser ranked school (if financially viable) for the networking opportunity among like peers and exposure to leaders in his field – not just for the resume, which is just about always parsed by an applicant tracking system before a human looks at it anyway – but for the impact of the opportunities on his professional development.</p>
<p>At the same time, my high stat kid is one of those crazy performing arts types who had the stats for STEM but went all BFA-ish in a music tech hybrid program…so in his case, he was LUCKY that UMich was in-state and simultaneously has a great program in that particular discipline…because I’d never suggest a family stretch itself or indebt itself at the UMich OOS cost for a music degree unless they really weren’t going to feel the expenditures. Others might choose differently…it’s a relative thing ;)</p>
<p>But in CS or ENG? The return-on-investment can be pretty strong if the student is the type who will really take advantage of the resources available. Actually, even a lot of the music tech kids who took ENG classes as part of their hybrid music degrees get pretty decent jobs because companies like Bose recruit at UMich, and there are a lot of alumni connections.</p>
<p>In your position if I recall your posts correctly, your son is headed to UA in the fall, which is a very pragmatic decision on his part. If he is not challenged by the program, however, I’d say transfer, unless he knows for certain he will pursue grad school. If he loves it, then assume the universe is perfect and you’ve been given a “get outta debtors jail free” card ;)</p>
<p>Smart kids can make things work in just about any condition, so sometimes we need to trust their instincts. Fit is about more than an alma mater on a resume.</p>
<p>I was in line at the airport and there was girl in front me with a Brown sweatshirt on. I asked her how she liked Brown and what she was majoring in (sophomore in applied math).</p>
<p>She was pleasant, but nothing screamed high IQ/high stats which I presume she has.</p>
<p>When we visited schools, I had my son describe his work at his software company. I saw him get better each time he did it. Communication skills are very important and one thing that impressed me was the MIS and CBH kids at UA were very strong. It seems clear that they work with kids on their soft skills.</p>
<p>Wow, lots more posts since I was last on! Okay, to answer a few things: nubs, I do know about schools not hiring their own - I was really just trying to be funny (failing, obviously), as I thought it humorous that here we are bashing on UA’s history department, when quite a few of their profs got their PhD’s from UM. Sorry - I’ll try to keep the humor at a minimum from now on. :)</p>
<p>kmkcmom13 - that’s why I said “most” and not “all” - there are a few of us old timers on here…but not many.</p>
<p>And rjk, yes, my hubby has his PhD. And that school my hubby went to for his undergrad? Well, Ohio State of course, LOL! Yep, my poor Wolverine daughter has a Buckeye dad - she even gave him a “Michigan Dad” baseball cap for Father’s Day. If she’s lucky, he might wear it once. My husband is of course smart enough to know that she is going to one of the best universities in the country for music, so he is perfectly okay with her choice. Even if he did teach our D a rather interesting version of the UM Fight Song…</p>
<p>And nubs, the only reason I pointed out his scholarship to Northwestern was just to show that you don’t have to go to the highest-ranked undergrad school to still get into an elite grad school with a scholarship. It IS doable, coming from a public university. And as his wife, I was VERY thankful that he didn’t saddle us with tons of debt, because I can tell you that with our meager salaries, we would have had a difficult time paying it off.</p>
<p>Now, for those of you discussing where to go for CS, I will abstain, because I know nothing of the field!</p>
<p>I would like to know if the people who consider Alabama a “bad school” has ever visited the campus? Have you ever talked to the professors or attended class there? It is a LOT more than just football.</p>
<p>^I don’t think many if any posters on this thread consider UA a “bad” school. I believe most of the debate here was centered around whether or not it served a student to attend a top university where statistically the rigor/capability of the peers most closely match or challenge the students own capability. </p>
<p>Generally, the saying is to attend the best school one can afford, with “best” referring to rigor, not simply amenities. I’m not sure that UM and UA would regularly end up in cross-admit/yield situations were UA not so generous in its recruiting strategy. That’s not the same as suggesting it is a “bad” school :)</p>
<p>Bama oversigns and abuses medieval hardships to get bad players off if its team and free up scholarships. Sabin is one of the slimiest coaches in the game. </p>
<p>“I would like to know if the people who consider Alabama a “bad school” has ever visited the campus? Have you ever talked to the professors or attended class there?”</p>
<p>No but I am involved in entry level hiring/interview processes, and have been at my old firm as well. And if an Alabama (or any school of that tier) resume comes in, it goes into my trash folder. Chances are I won’t see it because HR would have screened those out. Actually, chances are HR won’t even see it because the peoplesoft system would have screened those out before a human lays eye on it. This is at least true for most high finance firms/elite tech firms (the google, the facebook of the world) for front office (and in tech’s case, software development, corp dev) type of positions. And high finance (high frequency trading/hedge funds/asset management quants/trading quants) and elite tech are where the top CS talents usually end up. </p>
<p>I am not trying to be an ass here. Just a dose of reality. When top finance/tech firms are willing to offer top money (120K+ all in) for “top talent”, they want REAL “top talent”; and prestige plays a big factor here, like it or not.</p>
<p>But yea if you don’t mind a glass ceiling for elite jobs, I think schools like Alabama or Michigan State would be just fine for your ordinary F100 job; and the reality is, most people end up in this bucket anyway, whether they are at Duke or Michigan or Alabama. It’s just that everyone’s told (by parents, by school, by whoever) that they have a chance to be special in the everyone’s-a-winner PC society we live in today, so no one wants to face the reality that they are probably average, and that the glass ceiling doesn’t apply to them anyway.</p>
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