<p>musicprnt,
I like your post. And I would agree with you on most of your point. I am, like your friend, grew up in China and got my Ph.D. here and stayed here.
It is true that getting good scores does not necessary equal to being able to excel in real life. Indeed, China does have a lot of inherent problems that prevented it from fully utilizing the talent and potential of her best and brightest. That is the difference between the US and China.
One critical point, however, is the need for US to look within our system and find our weakness. Find a way to improve and learn from others. China used to be #1 back in 1800’s in GDP output. However, the mentality of Middle Kingdom and refusal to learn from others, was the key reason why China fell behind. We ought to learn from that and do what we have to do to avoid making the same mistake.</p>
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<p>Oh pullease. As if you aren’t pointing to a particular group. Ah but who really knows when you use the example of Detroit! Sigh.</p>
<p>So you think the US’s 12.9% African Americans (compared to Canada’s 2.5%) accounts for these differences? Really? </p>
<p>It’s exactly that kind of mindset that creates the disparity I’m talking about. "Other’ are inherently different; not surprisingly, too many Americans only willing to pay for ‘their own’ and not for the education of children belong to “those people” who live outside the zip code.</p>
<p>Canada does not have the same kind of “diversity” that the USA has. About 16% of the Canadian population identifies itself as belonging to a minority group.</p>
<p>The three largest minority groups in Canada are–in order–South Asian, Chinese, (with about 3.5% of the total population in each of these groups) and Black Canadians (about 2.5%).</p>
<p>Hispanics are the largest minority group in the USA with about 16% total.</p>
<p>(cross posted)</p>
<p>I think poverty/single parent families have more to do with poor academic performance than lack of government health care.</p>
<p>Simple math</p>
<p>Add together the number of entertainment options/distractions to the US kids along with a separate accounting for the kids of the 33+ countries above them. Multiply that figure by the number of television sets, computers with TV access and/or game sets attached to television sets per capita for each respective country. Multiply that figure by the average amount of hours parents spend watching television nightly. Compare the amount of likely quality time the children spend in either study, homework or general reading for enjoyment along with active participation in the learning experience of children by their parents for each country. </p>
<p>I suspect a correlation can be found. Those where the parents are actively involved in the learning process [not hovering or doing the work, but as a true support mechanism for the education being advanced] from a young age until early to mid adolescence likely have better overall scores.</p>
<p>Not sure where your data comes from Atomom. StatsCan reported recently that 20% of the Canadian population were born in a foreign country, and for those 15 years or older, the number is 23%. Another 17% of those 15 years or older, had parents born in a foreign country. </p>
<p>In terms of ‘minority’ approximately approximately 46% report non-European origin. </p>
<p>But I’m really not sure what your point is. Countries are judged on how their people- all their people- fare.</p>
<p>I’m surprised by the rigorous defence of the US educational system.
I’ll put it down to a bit of knee-jerk patriotic fever.</p>
<p>Firstly the arguments of diversity, comparability, and as to whether one can compare Detroit with Toronto fail to take into account that the PISA examinations amongst OECD nations are sampled, scaled, and statistically weighted to provide as accurate comparison between the test countries as statistically possible…</p>
<p>You may condemn all statistics in general (Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics, as Disraeli once noted)…but there is no reason to condemn this particular set of statistics just because you don’t like them.</p>
<p>Secondly, Since the first PISA examinations in 2000, the US has for the most part seen its rankings stagnate whilst other nations have markedly improved. The net result being that American students are being overtaken by standing still.</p>
<p>Thirdly, you may wish to note that many of the countries which beat the US in 2000 were countries with rather low traditional representation in US colleges…
Come across many Finnish, Dutch, or Australian students do you?
However in the latest 2009 test, countries to beat out the US include the likes of China, S Korea, Poland, Estonia, Singapore, Hong Kong, Slovenia, and Slovakia.</p>
<p>In other words, in 2000, countries that used to beat the US were not countries which saw a sizeable inflow of students seeking college admissions.
But in 2009, you are looking at countries which have vastly improved standards of living through either having joined the EU or through being associated with a rising Asia.
These students, especially the Asian ones, WILL be far more likely to enrol in US colleges in the future.</p>
<p>Now given that there are a finite amount of placements at US colleges…
If there are more students, from more countries, with the financial means to enrol, and with better academic achievements than their American counterparts.</p>
<p>Who will be left without a college placement?</p>
<p>Then if only 50% of these students return to their countries of origin to take their place amongst the educated elites of their countries…this represents a substantial ‘brain drain’ to the United States.</p>
<p>This trend will not be felt immediately, it will take a generation for the effects to be noticed, but by then it will very difficult to reverse the decline.</p>
<p>Look at it this way.
There are 550 places at Harvard Law every year.
For arguments sake, lets say currently 15% are Foreign…
How many US students will be attending HLS in 20 or 30 years if the current trend continues?</p>
<p>…China Daily has just reported a 30% increase in enrolments to US universities:</p>
<p>Quote:
“Last year, the number of Chinese undergraduates in the US increased by 50 percent year-on-year to nearly 40,000, more than four times as many as five years ago. The Chinese economy is booming. The growing middle class are able to send their children abroad for higher education as many families have only one child and they use all their resources on that child.”</p>
<p>Now, if overseas students have more money, more freedom to choose, better academic qualifications than US students but there are a finite amount of placements.</p>
<p>How do you figure its not US students who will be impacted the most?
How do you figure that a significant drop in US college graduates will not impact the US economy?</p>
<p>And if you say the economy will rest on the back of the best and brightest 5% of top students you are displaying a woeful knowledge of just how complex the US economy is, as well as historical ignorance…go read what impact the GI Bill had after WWII had on US economic competitiveness and US standards of living.</p>
<p>Wishing these scores away does not make so.</p>
<p>America may have the best universities on earth…
…and when they are filled with top fee paying Chinese, Polish, Estonian, Asian, or Slovenian students at the expense of their dumbed down American compatriots?</p>
<p>Forget the outsourcing of the Manufacturing sector…You will have successfully insourced college education at the expense of US students who can’t academically compete…and waving the flag won’t help.</p>
<p>parents: lack of parental supervision, parents, parents, parents</p>
<p>Good heavens - if the kids can’t be bothered to work hard on these tests, then the scores do accurately reflect a major work ethic problem.</p>
<p>Speaking from my kid’s experience, I think that the pressure on teachers to push kids forward declined every year after Kindergarten. Grade school kids were not tracked, so everyone got the same level of instruction (except for special ed kids). By the time my kid was in middle school she was doing very little homework and, in my opinion, learning very little relative to the amount of time spent at school.
In High School, the kids are effectively tracked. APs and Honors classes educate the better students appropriately, but everyone else sits in very easy classes. Teachers experienced ZERO pressure to move kids up from regular ed. to honors. I personally engaged in a major effort (three sit-down meetings) to get my kid shifted up in math and science. She’s successfully passed college calculus and science so I feel justified. Left to the teachers, she probably would not have passed those college classes; she would not have been prepared for them.</p>
<p>In summary - not enough parental pressure and not enough school pressure to excel. Low expectations. Too many parents fell into decent jobs w/o an education don’t realize how very difficult it will be for our kids today without that education.</p>
<p>I would say something very racist but I won’t. :)</p>
<p>To those of you saying US students at the top are just as good as the rest of the world, it’s partially true. Olympiad results from 2010:
International Biology Olympiad: 1st
International Olympiad in Informatics (computer science): 1st
International Math Olympiad: 3rd
International Physics Olympiad: got pwned, unsure of exact ranking
International Chem Olympiad: got pwned, unsure of exact ranking</p>
<p>On the other hand, the US team for IBO and IOI both had 2.5 asians out of teams of 4. The IMO team was 4 asians out of 6.</p>
<p>musicprnt, you are making some good points. It’s true that in terms of innovation and creativity, America is still a powerhouse other countries cannot rival - not yet at least, but I think there are two things that are worth noting. One, a significant number of the researchers of science and technology with advanced degrees in the US received their secondary and even undergraduate education in another country. They have been part of this country’s innovative and creative force. Two, the tests under discussion did not just test "rote learning”, but rather they tested creativity and innovation abilities as well – as much as such tests can. And, don’t think the high test scores don’t do anything good to China. They are catching up quickly in multiple areas. Yes, up till now still behind us but if I was really pessimistic I’d think it’s a matter of time if both America and China continue on their separate paths as they are now.</p>
<p>There’s no doubt that China has a whole range of issues of its own. We shouldn’t and probably couldn’t anyway implement the “Chinese mode”, and I don’t think that’s a major concern right now (that we are too much like China).</p>
<p>I’m not particularly worried because of this survey – there are tons of variables involved, and I don’t think anyone should be pulling their hair out strictly because of it.</p>
<p>BUT I am very concerned about the general education kids are getting in this country. When I was in college, I briefly considered getting my Masters in Education, and I started doing observation hours at a local school. This was a school that was founded by my university, and it routinely gets a nod as one of the best urban public schools in the country. It is free, but the parents and students have to write an essay saying why they want to go there, the parents have to demonstrate that they will be sufficiently involved in their child’s academic lives, etc, etc. But when I got there, it was a zoo! I was in the high school history department, and everything the teacher said was dumbed down to the lowest possibly level so they could understand it. The kids were rowdy and disrespectful, and the teacher had to make sure to remind them not to use “text speak” in their essays. WHAT?! It makes me really sad that someone had to actually say that.</p>
<p>I had some experience at another school, this time in an English department in a less well prestigious public school. There was a special class for the kids who had failed freshman English more than twice, and the level of analysis on a fairly straightforward text such as The Crucible was really depressing. Another freshman class spent the day working in groups to make “Jabberwockys” out of arts and crafts supplies. They were given 50 minutes, and they were told to make whatever they thought the Jabberwocky looked like. In an English class. This is why there are so many kids today who can’t string together a sentence without using internet slang. And I say this as a 22 year old who went to public school in a middle to low income area.</p>
<p>Whatever the case, it really burnt me out on teaching, and it was very depressing to see the type of things that I consider common knowledge that these kids were not being taught. I’m not saying that there’s no hope for the future or that America is doomed, but I wonder if these kids will be sufficiently prepared as adults to be successful in whatever they choose to do.</p>
<p>Info from: Demographics of Canada, 2006 Census, Visible Minorities (Wikipedia).</p>
<p>A table on the same site shows the South Asians were 4.0, Chinese 3.7%</p>
<p>My point is that the amount and type of diversity in a population makes a difference. US and Canadian populations are very different.</p>
<p>Some cultural groups value academic education more than others.</p>
<p>Arbydan-
Nicely written, and I agree with your point totally (which was mine as well), that the US needs to address issues with our education system, including issues of curricula and funding, and needs to find something that actually works. Someone pointed out the incredible value the GI bill brought to the US, that was what created the boom in WWII prosperity that we saw, it allowed GI’s who before the war would have had little chance to go to college to go, and it also allowed people to get skilled trades training.</p>
<p>And we sadly have a cult of ignorance in this country that is flourishing, where you hear people who no better sneering at college education as ‘an elitist waste’, or claiming that the real wisdom is in ‘common folk’ and such, it is sad and this is reflected in our schools. You see it when schools will cancel academic classes or honors programs to be able to maintain their sports programs, or dumping arts programs as ‘frills’ while keeping other things (I am not going to get into the value of sports programs, they do offer benefits, but so do the arts, and I frankly would rather see a school offer a good solid Honors track curricula rather then have a winning football team with a stadium with artificial turf, if push comes to shove). </p>
<p>People argue that the post WWII prosperity was brought about because the US had no competition, because of the war devastation, but that leaves out a lot. One of the things that even our European allies didn’t have before WWII was a universal education system, and they didn’t have at the time the access to higher education and skills training the GI bill brought…and that paid dividends many times what we spent on it, because many of those who went to college in that generation on the GI bill, or received training, moved into the middle class and their kids in the next generation became educated. </p>
<p>What disturbs me is we seem to be copying the Chinese model (used by other countries), rather then looking at what we really need to know. We already have a lot resting on standardized tests, and far too much is based on cramming facts for tests rather then learning IMO, the loss of things like arts and humanities courses (the ones that don’t appear on standardized tests) seems to have happened as the obession with testing took hold. </p>
<p>One of the things that has allowed the US to prosper is the ability to adjust, to, as Churchill once said, to ‘find the right answer, after trying all the others’, and there is a lot of truth to that. We adjusted to a post WWII world, where people were freaked out about how to handle the 16 million under arms returning from the war, and by doing what they did created incredible prospority, and more importantly, widespread prosperity that touched a large swath of the US population. We survived a horrible economic depression that could have caused the government to go south, we also built a wartime industry from the ruins of our manufacturing industries in practically zero time, all of which was because of being able to find different solutions to the problems at hand. We need to do the same thing with education, using the model of the Chinese or the Indians or Koreans or Dutch is the wrong way to go, and frankly I would be more concerned about producing kids who can create the next big thing, rather then some idiotic test. Even assuming these tests can measure creativitity and innovation (I am very dubious of that), the real test is going to be if the kids who do so well on these tests actually help create something, and right now the Jury is out on that, to be honest.</p>
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<p>^As, apparently, do some countries. </p>
<p>Toronto, btw, is the fifth largest city in North America, behind NY, LA, Chicago and Houston. It is incredibly diverse. It shares many of the urban woes faced by large American cities, eg. crack, crime, poverty and the increasing margin between the haves and the have-nots. English is not the first language for many of the inner-city dwellers. However, the stratification comes more from socioeconomic status than race alone, which is what you seem to be suggesting. I actually can’t think of a single reason you can’t compare academic performance between Toronto and Detroit, or Chicago, or LA or Houston.
– Unless of course you look to the influences and concepts of society I referred to earlier. Unless you look at what is valued – the evidence of value in the policy, funding, equity and access.</p>
<p>– Musicprnt, nice post – I share your observations about the distinction between teaching to the test and teaching how to learn – with a preference for a holistic approach. Unfortunately the socratic approach is more expensive to deliver and therefore is not uniformly adopted or funded here, and at the same time, clearly neither is the test actually “taught to” per se. I also agree that centralized policy/mandate and funding would improve things as well. There does have to be some kind of objective metric by which to gauge the delivery efficacy of a curriculum.</p>
<p>"will you just realize that your basic education sux and stop the non-sense excuses "</p>
<p>irony lives.</p>
<p>To starbright:</p>
<p>I picked Detroit and Toronto because those were the two mentioned two posts above mine. Don’t come here and point at me as a racist. </p>
<p>The poverty rate among under-18’s in Detroit is 35%, the family poverty rate (which should include most if not all the under-18s) in Toronto is 23%. Overall Detroit is a lower-income city than Toronto. All evidence I’ve ever seen shows that poverty and low-educational achievement go hand-in-hand. Poverty is more than 50% more widespread in Detroit than Toronto.</p>
<p>"Oh pullease. As if you aren’t pointing to a particular group. Ah but who really knows when you use the example of Detroit! Sigh.</p>
<p>So you think the US’s 12.9% African Americans (compared to Canada’s 2.5%) accounts for these differences? Really? "</p>
<p>Would it be bigoted of me to suggest it might be both blacks and whites of southern origin? I recall someone looking at crime data across states, and found that BOTH black and white southerners had higher levels of violence than the tier of far northern states. If you took that tier of states alone, our violence levels were NOT higher than Canada’s. I wonder what we would see looking regionally at educational tests. </p>
<p>Of course to be a strong and prospering nation we need to educate all. However if we are judging our EDUCATIONAL system, we need to normalize for the impact of historic cultures (including the legacy of past discrimination) on the students that system has to work with. </p>
<p>I am also concerned, like many, that under NCLB we have taken methods that may be necessary to bring up the kids at the educational bottom, and applied them to all. I have seen my kid, in a GT center, spending way too much time preparing for standardized tests, doing repetitive, tedious things, and spending too little time exploring, creating, and thinking. Some how we need to teach the basics to those who need it, but we shouldn’t “close the achievement gap” by miseducating that minority of students that is capable of true love of learning and that needs the freedom to soar. </p>
<p>China has fast economic growth. The European states that seem to also beat us on these test have not, over time, been growing faster than we have. And Japan seems to do pretty well, yet their economy has been in the doldrums for almost 20 years. I am unconvinced that Chinese economic success is driven by whatever is measured in these tests, rather than more conventional explanations regarding the combination of low wages and governmental stability. Perhaps, at higher levels of development, what matters really IS that spark of creativity and dynamism that is not captured well by this or any test.</p>
<p>I’ve been around for a long time and this isn’t the first time I’ve seen this kind of report. </p>
<p>First it was the Russians that were going to ‘bury us’ with their fabulous test scores and wonderful mass education system. Then it was the Japanese, who were going to be our economic masters and we’d all be doing our daily drills on the shop floor. There were even some movies to that effect. </p>
<p>Well, the Russians were brought down by their attempt to keep up with our production, esp. on the military-industrial front. Their population problem is so intense, the government is offering ‘child bonuses’. </p>
<p>The Japanese have been in a decades’ long economic slump from which they have not yet emerged…and are losing population as well and remain resistant to the idea of immigration in sufficient numbers to make up the slack. </p>
<p>Now it’s the Chinese…let’s all freak. </p>
<p>Well, no. Pardon me if I don’t join in the panic. </p>
<p>I’ve been to China (just on a visit) and they’ve got problems that extend beyond the undoubted ability of their finest kids. Their population is not nearly as healthy as it should be, almost everyone smokes and even those that don’t still breathe some of the dirtiest air anywhere. That’s going to cause economic hardships when their cancer rates soar. Their attempts to create a ‘free market’ has shown dividends in terms of greater wealth, but it is concentrated in a few hands. There’s also a great deal of corruption all along the line, from the lower managers right on up to the top echelons. They are trying to maintain a huge standing army – very expensive – and to provide services for a Billion people. Their ‘one child’ policy created a generation with a sense of entitlement that makes our kids look like pikers. In Chinese society, the female children take care of their parents when they get too old too work. That’s going to put a lot of stress on those kids in a couple of years…which will mean putting off marriage for themselves. You’ve also got an already present female shortage which will grow as time passes as many people chose to have one son as their only child. </p>
<p>The next Bill Gates may be named Liang Liu who lives in Shanghai. But I bet she calls herself Nancy, dyed her hair blonde, and wears a cross because it’s cool. Her ideas and inventions will belong to the world, just as Ford’s did, Gates’ did, Edison, etc. (The Chinese also have a loose grasp of copyright protections). </p>
<p>So go on and yelp and holler about the bad education system. I’m not saying you’re wrong. It’s not great. We vote for people who aren’t so sure about public ed, who think science is an optional belief system, and who look at the system as a giant piggy bank. </p>
<p>But give the kids and the future some credit. Ever look at the Siemans Westinghouse Winners? The names come from every corner of the world and the people from all over the country. They are creating the future we will live in. </p>
<p>[Siemens</a> Foundation - 2010 Winners](<a href=“Siemens Foundation - Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) strategy - USA”>Siemens Foundation - Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) strategy - USA)</p>
<p>Musicprnt: While the U.S. is indeed a great innovator, to say that Japan somehow lacks in this area is just inaccurate:</p>
<p><a href=“http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Cisco_Innovation_Complete.pdf[/url]”>http://graphics.eiu.com/PDF/Cisco_Innovation_Complete.pdf</a></p>
<p>According to this survey, based on per capita patents issued and other factors, Japan continues in first place. The U.S. moved down one place to fourth since the previous study.</p>
<p>While Japan has experienced a financial bubble collapse and stagnating growth ever since, it is still incredibly innovative. </p>
<p>Also, from an article commenting on this study:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[EIU</a> Media Directory](<a href=“http://www.eiuresources.com/mediadir/default.asp?PR=2009042301]EIU”>http://www.eiuresources.com/mediadir/default.asp?PR=2009042301)</p>
<p>Given China’s ability to set goals for itself and put resources and focus into reaching them, it is not hard to imagine that it will rise quickly on this list.</p>
<p>While the U.S. will continue to be a leader in innovation for the foreseeable future, it shouldn’t be assumed that our “culture” and type of educational system will prevent other countries from surpassing us at some point.</p>
<p>As a side note, creativity, which Americans count as one of their great strengths, seems to be in decline:</p>
<p>[The</a> Creativity Crisis - Newsweek](<a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/2010/07/10/the-creativity-crisis.html]The”>The Creativity Crisis)</p>