<p>“Now, if overseas students have more money, more freedom to choose, better academic qualifications than US students but there are a finite amount of placements”</p>
<p>How do you figure that? The total number of enrolled univ students is far higher now than it was 50 years ago in the US. China itself has established new universities, as have all growing LDC’s. Why can’t higher ed expand to accommodate demand?</p>
<p>Absolutely there is something wrong with our educational system, and I agree we should look at the Finnish and Germanic systems as models; however, our diverse population has issues and laws that require us not to just look at ability but the color of one’s skin. Are we tracking more black males to vocational tracks? more Asians to mathematical tracks? Someone will sue. It is inevitable. Even today, schools must watch percentages of behavioral statistics? What races/gender go to the office more? Is there a correct percentage of people identified with emotional disorders? We are even required to test all but the lowest SPED students. Most nations at the top of the list are culturally homogenous and/or small. There are difficulties in providing a free and appropriate education to all children and in believing that all children are capable of learning and appeasing all parents of all children.</p>
<p>oh, and added to my last comment, in my school there is the whole idea that “good enough is good enough.” When I tell my teachers that I got a 32 on my ACT (as a sophomore) and that I want to get a 36, they ask me why because a 32 is “good enough” to get most scholarships.</p>
<p>There is little they do to help the upper end, and I have often heard them encouraging the lower end to drop out.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned earlier that they would like to see a comparison between countries and individual states rather than the US as a whole because according to a lot of people here, immigrants are the people bringing the US’s rankings down. </p>
<p>Here’s what you asked for: </p>
<p>[Miseducation</a> Nation - The Editors - National - The Atlantic](<a href=“Miseducation Nation - The Atlantic”>Miseducation Nation - The Atlantic)</p>
<p>The article is interesting but make sure to look at the graph. It’s astounding…and pathetic.</p>
<p>My kids have gone to school at Finland and at USA and my oldest also at two different international schools on other countries. Finland tends to do well at these studies, so i want to point out few things.</p>
<p>In Finnish schools the days are shorter, recess longer, discipline much looser and there is much less homework. And parents are not even half as involved than US parents. There is also no separate gifted programs or much else separation for easier or tougher classes before grade 10. And focus is much more on the weaker students than in the US. Nowadays also most of the special ed kids are integrated to normal classes. They may have their own curriculum but the goal is that everyone studies on the same classroom. </p>
<p>Yes, Finland is homogeneous and well-ware system ensures that all the kids have quality health care etc. That certainly helps.</p>
<p>But do not forget the disadvantages. Very large part of Finnish kids’ studying time and ability is put to the things US kids don’t have to learn. In PISA test kids are tested at 15 I believe. Every Finnish kid at that age is studying at least two foreign language. Most do study three, some four different language other than the native language. This takes a huge part of their effort and study time. And it is not the thing that is tested in PISA. For example my oldest was 13 when we moved here. At Finland he was studying English, German and Swedish. It took about ten hours a week from his class time just to study foreign languages. </p>
<p>Finnish kids are certainly not smarter than anyone else. But they do have excellent teachers (it is as difficult to get to study to be an elementary school teacher than it is to get to med or law school), they have much more free time than for example US kids, especially free play is very much encouraged (helps brain develop), pleasure reading is very common and almost all the kids are read a lot when they are young both at homes and at day care. They don’t have to waste their time to mindless busywork like US kids, they do have separate arts, music and crafts classes through 1st to 12th grade but their academic classes (and not really even the art classes) don’t consist from playing with scissors and glue or colouring (that is covered on pre-school curriculum.) On desperate times (almost all teachers home sick) kids may do the crafts also on academic classes but at least no one pretends that it is education or make homework from it.</p>
<p>Of course many things that work for Finns wouldn’t work at US. But some of it could be worth thinking about.</p>
<p>yep, I say blame the south</p>
<p>^offensive</p>
<p>Historically speaking, there are many reasons why, in the past, education was far better in the Northeast than in the Southeast. New England isn’t a great place for crops, so the people who settled there were fisherman, cobblers, traders, and a variety of other occupations that were best served by town or city life. Each town would have a school, a church, and a town square. So a large percentage of the population’s children would be educated at these schools. In the South, there was large scale agriculture, which lends itself to isolated plantations rather than the Northern town structure. If you wanted your children educated, you had to send them away to school or hire a tutor–both expensive options. Thus, a large percentage of children in the South went by largely uneducated, or only educated to a certain level.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I see no reason why the “Southerners are stupid” stereotype needs to continue, nor why deficiencies in any state which might further this stereotype should be tolerated in this day and age.</p>
<p>“Studying too much causes “gender confusion”? WTH? Even apart from the fact that that particular term is both ignorant and offensive, that’s one of the silliest contentions I’ve seen in a long time, and certainly casts doubt on everything else that was said by whoever wrote it.”</p>
<p>Who commented about gender confusion? I believe I missed that comment.</p>
<p>You can look at India and say “Wow, they are so motivated. They spend … hours a day in a class room studying and all of them want to be engineers. They’re going to dwarf the US job market” and blalalala. Take a look at India’s architecture and infrastructure collapse and failure rates over the past 10 years and maybe then you’ll understand that motivation and determination do not equal success.</p>
<p>This is absolutely ridiculous. Countries should not be ranking the intellect of their students against one another. We don’t learn so that we can be smarter than other people and rub it in their face. Well obviously people do but true education is not something that should be ranked or competitively compared. It should be a tool that can utilized to discover something new and help the world. </p>
<p>When we go around saying that one country is better at math then another we aren’t fixing anything. And people can go around saying that these test are done to find out how the lower ranked countries can improve but that’s a load of BS. </p>
<p>Countries already know the scholastic proficiency of their students based upon the domestic exams that are administered. So in other words the international ranking exams are unnecessary. And an educational system that works for the Chinese isn’t going to work for student in Chile. </p>
<p>There are so many factors that go into these scores that there’s no possible way that the rankings can be taken seriously. Customs and teachings and even the educational system won’t be the same in a region let alone an entire country. To give all of these kids one standardized test to rank them is doing them all a disservice. </p>
<p>It’s a shame that countries feel that they must be superior to one another in so many aspects that not even the very pursuit of knowledge is sacred.</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad.</p>
<p>Firstly, nice riposte with the irony jibe :)</p>
<p>Secondly…Sure there are many more placements than 50 years ago at Ivy League Schools (and US universities in general)
But US based enrolments for Chinese students ALONE have increased 50% year on year for the last 5 years.</p>
<p>That’s not counting students from any other country.
That’s not taking into account that the huge rising middle classes in China (and India) have the same dreams for their kids as American parents and that even more every year have the financial means to achieve those dreams.
Yes there are more Chinese universities but the cachet, the desire to attend a top foreign university (US-UK-Australia in that order) still trumps local institutions or the foreign partnership campuses in China such as the University of Nottingham or the planned Auburn Campus near Shanghai. Local universities simply don’t have the appeal for the top students, they are also-ran options.</p>
<p>The Harvard Undergrad intake is approx 7000 students per year…can you see them increasing that number by 50%, year on year?..and the other Ivy leagues?</p>
<p>US universities cannot grow at a equivalent rate to accommodate the burgeoning demand from China and India much less all the other countries that are currently producing better students than the US. </p>
<p>That is what I mean by there being a finite amount of placements compared to an increasing demand.</p>
<p>ephenst.</p>
<p>Its not about bragging rights between countries and peoples.
Its the facts that entrance to US universities is a competitive meritocracy based on a system of comparable results.</p>
<p>And if US students are comparatively weaker in their academic skills then they are less competitive in the GLOBAL marketplace for admissions.</p>
<p>And since the US is the top destination for foreign students it will be American students who will lose out in the competition for placements if they can’t compete.</p>
<p>Having taught for 6 years in S. Korea and another 6 in the US, I was able to view many of the differences between those two systems. As an example, Home Education is an important and clearly defined concept in South Korea; within their means and beyond, parents do everything they can to further their child’s academic opportunities. The importance of this objective is emphasized earlier there and parents arrange special tutors and target feeder schools at an early age. It is important there where you go to middle school because it determines where you go to high school, which in turn determines college, networking opportunities, employment and advancement. There are exceptions, of course, but that is the general format.The parents push the children and the children feel they have a duty not to let the family down. </p>
<p>Everything relies on the educational path taken and the tier system of universities and high schools is very clearly articulated so people know early if they are on a good path. The scoring is publicly posted. Except for grad schools and professional schools, American universities and language schools are oftentimes a learning destination for those who have come up short on the placement exams, perhaps as early as 10 or 11 years old. The irony is that once students get in to the college of their choice over there, they work less than in high school. Students spend a large amount of time developing contacts they will need and rely on throughout their lives. Academics per se becomes secondary and somewhat neglected. </p>
<p>Not to ramble on, but a lot of factors go into why American parents do not view educational opportunities for their children the same way. Perhaps as a country we know we can reasonably expect second and third chances educationally, so our parents are less worried about our fate. Perhaps, there are more avenues of opportunity here. At any rate, it’s clear American parents overall do not view Home Education conceptually the same way. And like everything else, the more time you spend, developing good study habits, etc., with the proper guidance and support, particularly early in life, the more productive you will be in those areas.</p>
<p>Before I went haring off with concern about the outcome of this test, I’d like to look at the questions. Over time, I have learned that there are many reasons for a student to answer a question incorrectly, only some of which have to do with being unable to read the material or solve the problem. You can learn quite a lot about a student by talking with him/her about questions that were “missed.” Additionally, I note that the scoring of this test is based on item response theory. I suppose that there may be a group of students for whom item response theory is valid. A quirky but deep thinker is likely to be disadvantaged by item response theory, in my opinion. IRT doesn’t really know how to handle students who miss “easy” questions and get all of the hard ones right, because that isn’t supposed to happen. </p>
<p>Pre-college schools in a number of other countries are, in fact, better than many of ours. It’s not the longer hours, it’s the quality of the instruction and the level of the demands. The last thing our students need is more hours of the same stuff!</p>
<p>that’s probably cause American students just suck. and they will continue to do so as long as parents keep coming up with excuses for them</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For heaven’s sake, the US school system is not full of quirky but deep thinkers.</p>
<p>I’m an international who went to an American school when I was in third grade, and before that, I went to Chinese local school. Going in, I was a whiz at math, reading and writing. In fact, I had read many of the abridged Chinese classics and understood them, well ahead of any of my classmates. Now I feel like I lag behind those from Hong Kong, my home town, in terms of knowledge and course rigor. I blame the course rigor. My korean classmate who wants to apply to Seoul National has to take remedial classes in order to match the level of rigor native Korean students have gone through.</p>
<p>counsel, your note was very interesting. I often wonder how many parents do pursue more education for their kids beyond what they get at school. My kid did spend a lot of time with kid science, literature, etc. books, but then she wasn’t a sports kid, and we didn’t allow much TV (none on school nights). I don’t know of anyone else who was so draconian ;)</p>
<p>TO THE DISRESPECTFUL POSTERS:</p>
<p>There is such a disrespect for America on this thread. Why the heck would you want to be in a country and attend our schools if you hate what we stand for and how we educate our students? For those of you that bash us PLEASE GO TO SCHOOL IN YOUR COUNTRY.</p>