Fatherof2boys, as of last Fall, the avg ACT for UA Freshman engineers was 29.2, per a report in the CW paper. That is a little higher than the avg at Auburn. Ill try to find that link.
@Gator88NE
You are probably correct about the UAH and UAB issue. Yes, both are part of University of Alabama System and Auburn is not.
Frankly, I think Professor Knox showed his bias in stating “The University of Alabama is the land-grant university that time forgot, a school that never made the 20th century transition to a research university, while the rest of the nation and even its much younger siblings roared past it.” In other words, he does not think that UA has ever been a good university. This makes it doubly perplexing why he would oppose current efforts by Chancellor Witt. Again, he presented no data to support the assertion that the current path is unsustainable. Maybe it isn’t, but there is no way to know based on his article which seemed more like academic mud slingling than analysis.
Back to R&D expenditures… From 2004 to 2013, UA actually increased its research investment from about $35 to over $55 million. That area is not be neglected, even if it could be better.
OP, good luck on your student raising ACT/SAT stats to increase automatic scholarship level for UA. DD got the required ACT score on the Dec 2013 effort and received the Presidential Scholarship and an increase in Engineering Scholarship when she began at UA Fall 2014. Test prep, practice and repeat tests, test tutoring all helped! Be sure student has time in their fall schedule to put in the efforts and have the efforts ‘pay off’.
To throw in my 2 cents worth, for UGA geography professor and his article - he may have finished a first degree at UA, since he was a Rhodes Scholar finalist in 1987, I suspect he finished a second degree at UAB in mathematics in 1988. It would have been helpful for him to have full disclosure of his credentials.
I think he is wrong about the current trends driving UA and AL ‘into a ditch’.
GA has Atlanta and private/public universities.
He is looking at a few statistics and drawing conclusions.
Even though there is a scholarship expenditure to UA for OOS high stat students, there are affluent and good OOS students that are paying to attend UA. He isn’t sharing the whole picture.
Yes, he makes no mention of Auburn, nor University of South Alabama.
UA, UAB, and UAH currently are under one board of trustees, and each has their own President. UAB is grappling with the unpopular end of its football program at the end of this past season - very disappointing to the UAB community, and hopes that that decision will be reversed. 18 colleges in AL have football programs, and USA just began a football program a few years ago. UAB IMHO should have a football program - pulling it has put into jeopardy other athletic programs there - and ‘substituting’ with other sports to stay in their competitive division is not fair to the UAB community. This situation may cause ‘reform’ the the UA System Board of Trustees.
I like Dr. Witt’s vision for UA. UAH’s vision seems in good stead. UAB is grappling with the rug pulled out from them on football. UAH had to ‘fight’ to retain its hockey program, which is an expensive prospect with the team travel (UAH is known for ‘hockey in the South’, and there is local ‘Huntsville Havoc’ hockey as well, so a fan base). There were some league changes, and UAH weathered through that.
I think AL state government and the Universities are doing a good job in cooperating. AL legislature spreads education dollars between school systems and higher ed, so often within the state it seems these two education entities are ‘fighting’ for education $$.
TN, GA, FL all have lottery systems that infuse money into college scholarships (I will call them hope scholarships, but each state may have a more unique name) for higher stat in-state students. AL seems resistant to having a lottery, in part because it is a known fact that many that buy lottery tickets are the lower income households. AL has off-shore oil drilling revenues that have funded the education trust fund - which on occasion has been dipped into beyond planned expenditures and then paid back.
Our country has a lot of debt, yet our country economically is doing great in comparison to the economy in rest of the world. I am not ‘expert’ in our country’s debt nor debt with various academic institutions. AL’s economy is growing and has good business indicators - ranked in the top 5 on some business growth indicators. The world markets always look at what is happening in the US, just as US markets also look at what is happening globally.
Many state universities have been very limited to the number of OOS scholar UG students they can take with any merit, so some students and their families may choose to go to their own public in-state offerings, a private university or another school that provides merit to meet the student’s education goals in a cost-effective manner for the student/family.
I think UGA loses scholar students to many places including in-state GA Tech - I don’t know exactly about the situation on GA students eligible for their hope scholarship, but I attended an AU orientation where a GA student was making a quick AU admission because she was not getting a slot at UGA even though academically eligible for the hope scholarship (not sure if she didn’t apply in time or what the particulars were). So there are ins and outs. I have a nephew that received the TN hope scholarship and attended TN Tech, successfully graduating with a CS degree, graduating Summa Cum Laude and landing a good job in TN. FL students weigh out what is offered there with their hope scholarship and if they qualify for UA scholarship, and some come to UA.
MS State offers some good scholarships, and some higher stat kids from AL go to school there; we know a number from N AL. Some go for their pre-vet/vet school; they have solid engineering programs. It is a very small town so a visit is needed to see if there is any appeal.
Our family has a current UG at UA (Presidential Scholar) and UG at UAB (Golden Excellence Scholar) - we are in-state, but both would have received scholarships if OOS. I have worked in higher ed in AL and TX, and having lived in AL a lot of years. When we moved here (before kids) we had no idea AL would have such great options and merit scholarships. Some states are better than others in this regard. It is a changing paradigm.
There are lots of college listings - Kiplinger and Money both provided ‘best value’ listings. Money had their special report with Aug 2014 issue and showed the data on the top 50 schools; Money has info on-line www.money.com/colleges - 17 of the top 50 ‘best bang for tuition buck’ were public schools with 2013-2014 in-state sticker price under $33k (UC-Berkeley had the high, while Brigham Young University-Provo had the low sticker price on the list with $17,500; if BYU is private it has a low sticker price). For privates, Georgetown (#37 on their ranking) had the highest sticker price at $62,180. Interesting was the highest average student debt on the top 50 was #12 Maine Maritime Academy in Castine, where the avg student debt is $32,820; sticker price $24,100; high school GPA 2.9 (lowest on the list, but next lowest is Mass Maritime Academy with avg GPA of 3.0, and several schools with 3.3 GPA avg as the next cluster of lower GPA - while a number of schools had avg GPA of 4.5; Maine Maritime had high early career earnings at $64,100, and 66% admission rate, while Mass Maritime had early career earnings at $54,700 and 72% admission rate.
Kiplinger (Ranked ‘America’s 300 best college values’, Feb 2015) said all the schools in their rankings meet their definition of value - a quality education at an affordable price,and the ones on their list were all ‘good schools’. Kiplinger had quality and financial measures in their breakdowns; their listings for Top 50, top 50 Private Universities, top 50 private liberal arts colleges, and top 100 public colleges. Kiplinger has a more in-depth look at the schools with the data and analysis - for example separating out the financial measure with in-state and out of state costs with the public colleges listing.
On Kiplinger’s top 100 public colleges, UA was ranked #44. In that 100 list, 18 had higher UG student bodies (AL was listed as 29,440 UG) with the largest UG student body with University of Central FL (Orlando) with 51,269 and ranked 42, next largest Ohio State (Columbus) with 44,201 and ranked 15, then Texas A & M with 44,072 and ranked 25.
Fatherof2boys: check out http://eng.ua.edu/ On the “Did You Know” section of UA’s College of Engineering page, you will see that the average ACT this past Fall for freshman UA engineering students was actually better than 29.2, at 29.4. This is 4.6 points higher than the avg just ten years ago according to the “Did You Know?” section on the page.
https://twitter.com/bamaengineering/status/584072540303323136/photo/1 for a graphic showing the rise in average ACT scores of UA Engineering students. There are other interesting facts and figures there. One of the figures there shows that UA’s overall freshman avg. ACT for Fall of 2014 was 26.7, which is .5 higher than was reported at the time. I don’t know how to explain that, but still its good to see.
@Atlanta68 thanks for the updated info on the College of Engineering (COE). Seems like the tour guide is underselling the academic credentials of the kids in COE. I suspect that our guide, who identified himself as being from Ohio, is probably an engineering student who memorized what was the average entering score when he applied to UA as a high school senior. The 28 he mentioned for COE was the only average score he mentioned during the tour for any of the associated colleges. Also, its interesting to hear that UA is planning a similar growth in their graduate school programs. One of the reasons why my son is also interested in Bama is because the UA scholarship FAQ states that some of the funds for the presidential scholarship can be used for graduate school. However, we were told by another parent that she inquired and learned that those funds can’t be used at the UA School of Law but she was told that there is the possibility that the policy could be extended to include the law school as well in the future.
My son’s plan to attend law school is one of the compelling reasons why we are considering UA. I’ve verified directly with our own state flagship school (UT-Austin) that even if my son goes OOS for undergrad, he would retain his Texas residency for graduate school purpose. Hence, if he could get into UT School of Law, he would qualify for in-state tuition and UT has the lowest tuition of any law school ranked in the top 20 nationally (UT is #15). On the other hand, I also know from first hand knowledge some lawyers who attended undergrad at OOS institutions that granted them in-state tuition status once they were admitted to the same institutions’ law schools. There is no guarantee respecting granting in-state residency status at Bama for law school; however, my son and I both note that UA’s School of Law is ranked #22 nationally. Amongst public institutions, the only law schools in the South with a higher ranking are Virginia and Texas (if you consider Texas part of the South). Including public and private law schools, UA is the number #6 law school in the South trailing only UT-Austin, UVa, Duke, Emory and Vandy. Therefore attending UA potentially gives him a shot at in-state residency tuition costs at two top 25 law schools.
@SOSConcern, congrats on you daughter’s achievement. My son received a 1380/2070 score on the January SAT test, the 1380 CR+M subscore was 20 points shy of the Presidential level (based on the 2015 cutoff). My son hates math and it was reflected in his 590 math subscore however he received a 790 critical reading subscore. He will be taking the ACT test in a couple of weeks and so far based on his prep he believes that the format of that test is better suited for him. The 2015 Presidential cutoff score was 32 and according to the ACT’s website equivalency guide, my son’s SAT score is the equivalent of a 31 on the ACT. We are hopeful that if the ACT test is indeed better suited for him, that he’ll get the 32 ACT score on the April exam. Of course we will still have to hope that UA does not raise the cutoff above 32 if that ends up being his score. At some point I suspect UA is going to have to increase the cutoff scores because the top 25% starts hitting anywhere near 32 that means a full quarter of the student body will be attending school tuition free. I’m just hoping that does not occur for another year. BTW, thanks for the info on the other ranking services, that’s interesting stuff.
As of Fall 2014, at least 25 % of the UA freshmen class had an ACT of 32 or higher.
OP, a friend’s son went to UA as a scholars student, then was admitted to his home state law school (highly ranked, VA) - and he has an excellent paid summer law internship. My nephew is finishing his first year of law school in his ‘home state’ of Iowa - however he is very accomplished, having a PhD and having taught (tenure track) in history for 4 years (students at his university rated him the best UG professor), his dissertation has been published (political theory, academician book), he was a Rhodes finalist. So he did many things before going from UG into law school. He concentrated his first year totally to law school - however I imagine he will try to keep his debt down by taking some kind of an academic position during his 2nd and 3rd years. During his UG he did a internship under Senator Grassley, so who knows if politics is in his future. Right now he is interested in a rural law and summer paid internship.
Hard to know if going into college if someone does follow through with law school. Law schools are also looking for diversity in UG education.
Once son begins UG, find out all one can on making himself an excellent law class candidate by having a stellar UG academic, EC, and LSAT testing.
@SOSConcern
Dr. Knox did not go to UA. If he had, he wouldn’t have resorted to his Boys State mention of being on Bama’s Campus.
This is his education:
Ph.D. (1996) University of Wisconsin-Madison, Atmospheric science
B.S. (1988) UAB (University of Alabama at Birmingham), Mathematics
I wonder why Dr. Knox has an ax to grind with UA and UA System. True about having to reach back to HS with being on UA campus…tks for clearing this up @mom2collegekids
It’s called jealousy.
FWIW, UA merit scholarships can be used to pay for law school classes, though the student cannot officially be enrolled in the law school. Credits earned can be used towards a law degree.
@SEA_tide thanks for the clarification. Please let me know if I correctly understand your point above. My son will have about 30 hours of AP credits, so he could potentially satisfy his undergrad history degree requirements in 7 to 7.5 semesters. If so, if he didn’t apply for graduation for his BA degree he could possibly register for some law school courses and the presidential scholarship would cover the tuition costs? Is it possible for an undergraduate to register for law school courses?
Or are there a limited number of law school courses available to members of the Honors College or even Blount that are actually law school courses?
In the future, I can see UA giving a dollar amount for scholarships. At first, they would be the equivalent of OOS tuition, then later the amount would be set and no longer rise. The enticement to OOS students would still exist, but the cost to the school would lessen over time.
I think Mr. Knox is looking at it as a faculty member. To Faculty, the administration and grad students, being a tier one research university is important. Not so much to an undergraduate student (and their parents!). For faculty, research (especially for STEM) leads to tenure and promotions. More students in the class room does not. Unless UA starts adding more tenured positions, we should expect more grumblings from the faculty…
The other driver behind the article (IMHO) is the opinion that the UA System board is dominated by UA, to the determent of UAH and UAB. My understanding is that this has been the feeling for years (with the UAB football thing, being another example…). Hence the efforts to restructure the UA system board.
By the way, this UAB football issue is still ongoing…
http://wiat.com/2015/03/31/uab-football-supporters-storm-state-house/
By the way, a cut in state funding is the most likely reason for any cuts in OOS scholarships. In that case it would impact the next year’s freshman class (and not anyone currently on scholarship). So, keep an eye on state finances. In general, the economy (and state funding) is improving, but there are exceptions.
To see a worse case scenario, check out the challenges currently facing LSU.
http://www.nola.com/education/index.ssf/2015/03/lsu_budget_president_alexander.html
There are definitely a few minor growing pains (ie: traffic on McFarland Blvd) but overall, the growth is smooth.
I am really surprised that LSU hasn’t had some success attracting more out of state students. Like Bama, it has a lovely campus, and is fairly close to many large urban centers in LA and Texas.
Their scholarships for OOS are much more competitive
@fatherof2boys Concerning UNL removal from the AAU, the main point argued by the UNL was that the AAU was not recognizing the USDA research dollars at the Ag School and also UNL does not have a school of medicine, which is at the Omaha campus. (BTW, U of IL BOTs just approved a new med school for UIUC campus to the dismay of UIC which oversees the existing school of medicine.)
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-u-of-i-medical-school-0313-20150312-story.html
UNL also has ambitious expansion plans like UA, to increase from 25K to 30K students and increase tenured faculty from 1075 to 1300 by 2020. UNL is the second smallest school in the B1G behind private Northwestern. Like UA, UNL gives very generous OOS scholarships to draw students away from higher prestige home state flagships in IL, WI, and MN.
After joining the B1G in 2011, Nebraska saw increased enrollment from other B1G states and also increased interest from faculty in joining a B1G university.
Expansion article from Daily Nebraskan
http://issuu.com/dailyneb/docs/apr22
Interesting comparison of academics of the five power football conferences
https://infogr.am/2014-power-football-academic-rankings