I do not feel that way. However, you should note that UCB offers strong courses and curricula, delivered in an economy-class manner (e.g. large class sizes, though you should check on-line schedules to see what class sizes actually are for your major courses at each school, rather than making general assumptions*). For some students, that is perfectly fine.
But many posters on these forums prefer the LAC model, with small classes (even at the introductory level), though often at the cost of fewer course offerings or courses offered infrequently. The private LACs that are heavily favored by many posters here also tend to be expensive (some have good financial aid, some less so); some public LACs may be less expensive, but many of the LAC advocates rarely mention them (most of the public ones have low prestige value and low admission selectivity).
^this would be compared to about 18 in lower level classes at a LAC, and probably 10-12 upper level. As you can imagine, the kind of attention you’d receive would be different.
However, it’s not a choice between huge class sizes or debt. It’s finding a college that will give you a good value for what you want.
^^^That’s just not true. Class sizes at schools like Richmond, Wake Forest and I imagine many LACs are small intro through advance (just smaller in advanced classes) Guess it depends on definition of small. S took 6 classes first semester at Wake and largest class was in the 20s (that included calculus which would have had several hundred at state U), smallest was 12. Very discussion based, The class with 12 rotated student led discussion (Professor assigned each student a date to lead the class in discussion - sort of a current event debate type format where the student leader had to have a command of the material and be able to get others to focus, dive deeper, stay on topic,etc.)
I attended a large state flagship, albeit in the 80s and I realize many things have changed. I had the lectures with 500 kids and a TA led lab with a smaller number (maybe 40). Trust me, there is absolutely no comparison, none whatsoever, to the type of service, professor / student engagement, academic advisors, etc that S receives compared to what I had. Not better or worse, just different. Depends what’s important to you.
I have a student at UCB and one at Pomona College. I think the education is great at both. One student does better in small classroom settings. The opportunities at both are enormous. At UCB, you have to be able to advocate for yourself. You have to be comfortable with large freshman classes, like 500 in an auditorium. Make sure you can see yourself at either before you accept an offer of admission. A small LAC if part of a consortium like Pomona or Amherst can give you the feeling of a bigger school.
The chances that you become a tenured professor are between slim and none. Getting into a top notch graduate school gets you through one filter but there are not nearly enough tenure track positions for all the graduate students graduating from top notch graduate schools, let alone all graduate schools. Becoming a tenured professor is not a career path any more than becoming a professional athlete is one.
If you or your family need to borrow money to chase this dream, re-think your plans right now. If, on the other hand, the cost of education is not a big deal, feel free to chase your dream and enjoy the experience. After all leisure is the basis of culture.
Berkeley is the Dr. Pepper of universities . . . you will either like it or you won’t. It’s the only place I’ve ever seen a wild squirrel with an earring. With its large stone buildings and its general weirdness, it can also be a very lonely place. It is very high energy and exciting, too. Be sure to visit first before committing. It definitely isn’t for everyone.
Berkeley is what you make of it. I’m a first year humanities student and I haven’t found it overwhelming, but know lots of people that have. The difference between Cal and a LAC is they will not hold your hand at Cal. You can have great access to professors, most of which are top in the field, but you have to put in the effort by going to office hours, talking to them after class, and actively participating in class. As far as class size, it varies dramatically class to class and major to major. Assume that most of your intro classes will be large and with upper division class size greatly reduced. There are opportunities for small classes in your first two years though (I’ve taken 2 semesters of Spanish with less than 20 people and 2 freshman seminars each with 15 people). All lecture classes have discussion sections led by Grad students that tend to have between 20-30 people in them. Like with getting to know your professors, it is on you to get involved on campus. I too came from a big high school so this wasn’t a problem and I love everything I’ve gotten involved with. A lot of the social scene comes from clubs. I turned down many LAC to come to Cal and am very glad that I did. While Berkeley is a perfect fit for me, I would not recommend it to people that lack self direction.
It’s always interesting to read comments about UCB since they usually are diametrically opposes fo one another. Prospective students must be incredibly confused. I understand why this is the case because my son just graduated from UCB. He worked harder than I’ve ever seen a student work, but finished with an amazing education and great job prospects. Highly motivated, self directed students thrive at UCB. Students who need more support are better off going to a private college. Based on your description, you sound like you will do well at UCB without breaking the bank.
@lfrancis95 I think you summed it up perfectly. My sophomore D - always academically driven - is doing very well as a STEM major at an extremely tough university. Working her tail off, but then she did that in high school, too. She’s figuring out how to get what she needs from a large university with a lot of resources but not a lot of hand holding. Club director, undergraduate research, and a paid summer internship: not too shabby for a kid from a mid-level public high school.
The class sizes really vary a lot by major. Philosophy is one of the larger Humanities majors, and has a mix of some classes that are around 15-20, and some that get up to 100. English is the same. But a lot of majors have much smaller classes - based on the interests you mentioned, I’d suggest considering Classics or Comparative Literature. The language programs are also really small, and once you get to the upper-division levels, you’re basically studying literature but just in another language.
As someone else mentioned, you do have to make the effort to get to know your professors but they will be more than happy to help you. They love students who are passionate about their subject and want to go into academia. Also, you can take freshman seminars starting your first semester, and they’re capped at 15 students, I think.
I’m sorry…”no way UCB isn’t better than the best LACs”? You’ve just lost all credibility. UCB for Grad School makes much more sense. And what is the best way to get into UCB Grad School? Yes, a small LAC where you can manage your GPA, taught 90-99% by tenured Professors, not 23 year-old TAs.
@preppedparent perhaps you are unaware of all the kids at UCB taking classes in SF or living at Mills College due to lack of room and Professors? When classes hit 200 for lower levels, it gets a bit discouraging and can be a challenge to remain engaged when you are sitting in the hallway or lobby outside the lecture halll due to lack of physical space.
^^That doesn’t sound good. Luckily my student never lived at Mills College or took classes off campus. The furthese was Clark Kerr Campus. Berkeley is what you make of it…you can’t be afraid of a monster sized university and you have to make your luck and your connections.
@preppedparent totally agree with its what one makes of it, and the bit of nuance is at an LAC, that is laid out for students and they don’t have to work so hard on soft skills like networking, swimming instead of sinking, proactive advising, TAs that don’t get it and fight the system, so to speak, like ours have had to do all through CA public schools. That’s in part why it’s such a terrific grad school option, as is UCLA. Best of both world would be USC in CA to a degree.
Actually no. USC probably has the best business network in the nation. You won’t find that level of committed, helpful alums and donors at any state school. More like a big LAC with a pre-professional bent. You get your classes, quality advising, etc. Yes, it’s large but so well-endowed, nothing is at a shortfall.
Most LACs do not have introductory-level class sizes anywhere near as large as those at USC (e.g. 200+ for introductory biology and chemistry; small class sizes, even at the introductory level, appear to be the main selling point of LACs). LACs also tend to be less pre-professional.
USC has its own pros and cons, but it really is not really a LAC.