UCLA vs. Berkeley for Pre-Law

Graduate School Law School
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Hey all, I don’t have much time to make a decision between the two universities (I have until June 1st), so I wanted to ask which of the two schools would be better for a pre-law History major on the law section in addition to the transfer section, as this section may offer me insight into what is truly important with regards to pre-law baccalaureate decisions. I’ll go ahead and copy-paste it from the other thread:

"On the one hand, I feel as though UC Berkeley would better prepare me for the rigorous and competitive environment of law school thanks to the senior thesis that would be required of me by the History program and the general competitive nature of its curved classes. Both the History Department and the Law School at Berkeley are world-renowned, and, because I’ll be focusing on legal history, the faculty from both departments may be able to give me a better educational foundation than UCLA (though this would be marginal, and UCLA is also an excellent institution). Involvement in the senior thesis program would also bring me closer to my professors, who could serve as excellent recommendations.

On the other hand, UC Berkeley seems as though it may have a negative impact on my GPA. While I have already attended a comparatively rigorous CC, I understand that Berkeley is known for burning students out. Moreover, it operates under a bi-semester system, which means that my classes may feature multiple mid terms and more difficult, cumulative finals. At the moment I have a 3.99 GPA, so my GPA at either school would have to be significantly lower to prohibit entrance into upper-tier law schools, but there is always the possibility that this could be the case. As for the history proseminar and seminar, producing a 30-50 page, graded, original thesis paper sounds stressful and time consuming, meaning that I would have less time to prepare for the LSAT’s during my final semesters.

There’s also a plethora of horror stories about UC Berkeley. I have read everything from the issues that the campus and the town have with homelessness and urban decay (my first time checking out Telegraph was eye opening to say the least), to reports of people flunking out because of unfair or arbitrary grading policies. Though Berkeley was my first choice, I am now apprehensive about it, largely because of the negative feedback I have gotten from former students and the difficulty associated with the History program. All I really want to do is to go to the best law school I possibly can, and I don’t want to make the mistake of transferring to the wrong school and destroying everything I have worked towards.

I also have to consider the quality of life I would have at both campuses. I think I’d honestly prefer the weather in the Bay Area, because I prefer the cold and I’m used to the rain having lived in Florida. I’ve been in So-Cal for several years, and I’m getting a bit tired of the eternal summer and the beach-bunny, laid-back atmosphere here. I have also lived in LA before, and while I understand that there’s a wide variety of people and places around both LA and Westwood, I dislike the pretentious, plastic attitude of a lot of the people I’ve met in LA. I’m also a comparatively older transfer, and Berkeley seems to have better housing options and resources for me in this regard. But I also understand that Berkeley has a lot of new-wave hippieness that would be annoying but not necessarily unbearable. From what I gathered during my trip up there, it also seemed to be a bit pricey. Once again, I see both positives and negatives with both universities.

I’ve visited both campuses, and my financial aid for both schools will be similar. As a result, I’m completely and utterly torn between them, and all I can do is ask for a third-party opinion. I know this is on short notice and I know this post was rather lengthy and poorly-written, but let me thank you in advance for both reading this and for offering your opinion, as it will help me make one of the most important decisions of my life."

Thanks!

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Pre-law is not a majoor. Go to whatever school you like and just do well at that school

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If by “pre-law” you mean you want to go to law school, then in terms of undergrad your GPA is what counts. Neither UC will better prepare you for law school. What you should do, however, is go intern at a law office to make sure law practice is actually what you think it is.

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On a academic basis, as it relates specifically to law school, there are negligible differences as to the two schools. Moreover, majors are not a big consideration for law school admission–it is primarily based on GPA and LSAT.

However, say you were interested at some point in attending Boalt (The law school at CAL) a top 10 law school, it has been shown for the top law schools in the nation, the schools that fared the best in getting the most seats for admission were as follows: Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Columbia. So, by way of real example, at Boalt, for the most recent class,107 undergraduate schools were represented. Most predominant are U.C. Berkeley, UCLA, USC, Stanford, U. Chicago, Yale, Harvard.

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@boolaHI: That’s a simple causation error. It’s not that the top undergrad schools give you a boost, it’s that they collect all the top test takers. Since law school also cares about tests, those same test takers, now concentrated, tend to get in more often.

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@Demosthenes49 To be clear, I did not say it was an issue of causation, but rather a basic observation. That said it is an observation that is quite starting in you really drill down on the numbers. For instance, in 2014, about 21000 folks took the LSAT. The average score at Y-S-H law schools is right around 173 or the 99th percentile. So, the folks that obtained that upper margin score was measured in the hundreds. The bulk of the those people are from Y-S-H-P…so, no surprise they are the most represented in the top 5-6 law schools in the nation.

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Cal is a better school overall and should give you a bit of a bump when it comes to looking for employment, and tends to have a higher-quality student body which may make for a more enlightening academic experience. To echo the recommendation above, go do some time in a law office to see just how dull and tedious most of it is before committing to law school.

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Berkeley has the edge overall, although both are certainly well-respected schools.

DO NOT DO PRE-LAW if you want to become a lawyer.

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Thank you for all of this info, everyone!

@sybbie719 - Yes, I understand that “pre-law” is not a major. I’m a History major (it says so in my post).

@boolaHI - I’ve heard that echoed a lot, that school and major mean little to nothing during the vetting process. If it’s just the GPA and the LSAT that matter, why then should I not just go to Irvine or Davis? Moreover, what’s a “safe” GPA for HYS? I currently have a 3.99 after 2.5 years of community college, which should act as a boost…

@STEMsupport & @HappyAlumnus - Both of you have suggested that Cal is the marginally better school (which I definitely see). I assume that you are referring, though, to the quality of the education, rather than any improvement in my prospects, correct? Do you think that the 30-50 page senior thesis required of me by the Cal History department would give me an edge in law school with regards to my dissertation, because I’m also wondering whether or not pursuing the History angle is even wise, given how much stress will be on my during my senior year (stress that will eat into my preparation for the LSAT).

@Demosthenes49 - What do you mean by “go intern at a law office to make sure law practice is actually what you think it is”? I understand that law practice isn’t like it’s portrayed on TV and that it’s mostly paperwork, if that’s what you mean. I’m set on the path because of the money and the connections more than anything else, to be completely honest (though it does seem like the sort of career that I could make an impact in).

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@Sulla1, correct, Berkeley is a better school overall, and I almost always recommend the better school no matter what school is in question. I don’t think that your 30-50 page thesis would give you an edge at all unless you work closely with a faculty advisor on it and get a great recommendation letter, or if somehow the topic fits into your life story or compelling interest.

I wrote a senior thesis that was about the same length, and a law school thesis that was the same length or longer. Neither was back-breaking effort. If you’re concerned about it impacting the rest of your studies, just write it during the summer before your senior year.

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@Sulla1: I mean that law suffers from extremely high rates of depression and substance abuse, largely because people get into it without looking. To avoid that fate, you’d best go try it out and make sure you can stand doing it. Otherwise all that money (which you probably won’t get, by the way) and connections (which you also won’t have) won’t mean a thing.

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Utterly ridiculous and unfounded statement. Cal’s history is ranked 1-14; UCLA is ranked 2-20. If you really think employers or grad schools parse the undergrads from peer schools that closely, then you’ve never been in that position.

That being said, as a transfer you will be taking upper division classes wherever you go. They will be much smaller than the entry level courses offered to Frosh.

Most colleges are on a semester system; ~20% are on quarters, which includes many UCs, Stanford, Northwestern, Dartmouth…quite frankly, a semester gives you more time to conduct the background research to write your papers. 10 week quarters move really fast.

Generally, lit/hume courses are not curved, at least in the same vein that STEM courses are.

Housing is expensive in both places.

The mean GPA’s are similar at both schools; there is not much difference in grading.

A thesis not uncommon at many colleges, particularly privates, so while it would be a nice-to-have to add to your resume, it’s not something that will set you far from the pack of other applicants (unless you can get something published). For example, Princeton requires a senior thesis for (nearly?) everyone.

Academics will be similar at each, so the decision should be based on other factors. One small downside to attending Berkeley is that you have a lot of local competition for Boalt. (The UC’s like to spread the undergrads around to all campuses.) OTOH, as a non-traditional student, you have a leg up at Boalt which LOVES non-trads, all other things being equal.

If you like the Bay Area, Go Bears!

1 Like
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@Demosthenes49 - What do you mean when you say that I probably wouldn’t get the money and connections associated with law? I’m aiming for HYS and a top tier firm, if that helps…

@bluebayou - So you believe they would largely be the same with regards to difficulty and the potential impact on my GPA, then? If so, then Berkeley does sound better in terms of quality of life.

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^^for the thousands of transfers, yes, the academic ‘rigor’ will be similar. Of course, for an individual, it depends on what courses you take, and advisors that you are assigned and what activities that you get involved with.

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Sulla, have you do enough research about this profession, law that is. On the parents forum there were plenty of thread about law school. It’s not what it used to be. You mentioned money and connection so I thought I suggest you do research.

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@Sulla1 I take it for granted that Cal carries a slightly better reputation than UCLA, so might be a little more desirable to have on the resume. Most law firms like to tout the alma maters of their attorneys on their websites and elsewhere, so their may be a slight advantage when it comes to employment prospects down the line. I’m not sure if doing a thesis will give you an edge when it comes to law school admissions, but might add a bit of prestige to your degree if not eligibility for honors or awards. And if nothing else will give you you a chance to really focus in on a piece of history – hardwork but fun!

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@Sulla1: 99% of people do not score the LSAT grade required for HYS. You must assume you are one of them. Even if you were one of them, and went to HYS, you’d spend most of your BigLaw cash paying taxes and loans, like everyone else.

After a few years, with your loans paid off, you’ll almost certainly quit BigLaw due to burnout, assuming the firm doesn’t “counsel you out” because they work on attrition models. The “connections” you’ll get will all be with other lawyers in the same boat. Maybe a decade down the line they’ll be useful, but that’s not much help when you’re starting out. The top tier firms will also work you to death (sometimes literally), so you can say goodbye to your hobbies and relationships. But I’m sure the prestige makes it all worth it.

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@Demosthenes49 - You make it sound like a Ponzi scheme. What would you suggest as an alternative path, then? Particularly for a non-STEM student?

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@Sulla1: I’d recommend you go try things. Big firm life really is for some people. I quite like mine. But plenty more are happy in house, working for the government, or in fields other than law. Go do some interning and see what things are really like. You’re about to enter an institution specifically designed to let you try things out. Take advantage.

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@Demosthenes49 - Thank you for the suggestions, I think I’ll do exactly that. One last question though: being relatively new to all of this, what avenues do you think I should take towards finding said internships? I hardly think I’m qualified to do much of anything at this stage…