<p>Unless Chicago comes down to Rice level, I gotta go with Rice 60K is a huge difference.</p>
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<p>I’m sorry but this guy seems like such a typical CC ■■■■■. I quickly went through some of his posts, and I found that he bashes Berkeley on every page. It’s not that he’s incorrect, it is just strange how much he hates one school.</p>
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<p>Nah. Hang around a bit longer. The RML vs. MrPrince rivalry is pretty well-known around here, I think. In short, RML is an overenthusiastic Berkeley fan who never fails to point out how Berkeley is better than or equal to every US school out there with the exception of HYPSMC. MrPrince is irritated by this behavior, despite having no horse in the race, and thus goes out of his way to put down Berkeley whenever he spots RML hanging around a thread.</p>
<p>At least, that’s the impression I get. Apologies if I have it wrong.</p>
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<p>OP, this topic has been discussed countless times on the UChicago board. Here are two links to get you started. If you run a search, you’ll find more information on it.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/1066027-pre-med-uchicago-current-students-only.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/1066027-pre-med-uchicago-current-students-only.html</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/674547-maximizing-med-school-acceptance-success-chicago.html?highlight=premed[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/674547-maximizing-med-school-acceptance-success-chicago.html?highlight=premed</a></p>
<p>Additionally, from what I hear (in other words, take what I say with a grain of salt), some pre-med advisors are discouraging and may take any chance they get to dissuade you from going to med school.</p>
<p>Personally, I’d take Rice’s offer unless you can somehow convince UChicago to raise your aid. Don’t get your hopes up, though. UChicago’s financial aid office is about as unmovable as the Rock of Gibraltar in most cases.</p>
<p>@nel did i mention that i HATE writing (as in english writing class). I can write science reports/journals. And i’m not the OP i hijacked the thread rofl… so you guys would go with rice?</p>
<p>@azndarkvadar
I’d definitely go to Rice. Aside from the fact that you’ll save a massive amount of money relative to Berkeley and Chicago, Rice holds many honors. </p>
<p>Rice is consistently ranked one of the top schools in terms of college experience in college guide books. Princeton Review ranks Rice #10 in happiest students and #17 in dorms like palaces. </p>
<p>Rice undergrads are also #9 in the number of PhDs earned per capita, above HYP and only slightly below Chicago! This attests to the strength of Rice’s academic quality relative to the Ivy League.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf[/url]”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/nsf08311.pdf</a></p>
<p>the problem is (i’m a typical cc student) i kinda care about prestige… even though its superficial- please dont criticize me… is rice well known in the academic world? do medical schools recognize it as a “top-notch school”. many of my friends don’t know about it…</p>
<p>Whoops, that’s my bad, then.</p>
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<p>I personally believe there’s not much difference between writing science reports and writing humanities papers - they require the same skills (i.e. structure, logic, evidence, flow, etc.), and very few professors care about style so long as your writing has clarity - but I’ll just say right now that if you come to UChicago, you’ll be doing a ton of writing. Six quarters of humanities (2-3 of HUM, 2-3 of Civ, 1-2 of Art), and three quarters of SOSC. HUM classes typically require 2-3 papers per quarter (sometimes even more), and the same goes for SOSC classes. Civ classes are a bit more variable; I ended up writing only one eleven-page paper over two quarters, but other Civ sequences have you writing 2-3. Basically, you’ll be writing. A lot. Furthermore, you cannot place out of these classes, as these courses are required of every UChicago student.</p>
<p>That being said, once you graduate, you will be able to write. Furthermore, you will be able to write at a high level, and you will know how to construct a solid argument. So, if you want a challenge, you really can’t go wrong with UChicago.</p>
<p>But Rice is a whole lot cheaper. I don’t know much about the school myself, but it doesn’t lose out to UChicago or Berkeley, IMHO, especially with that price tag.</p>
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<p>Actually, students in Berkeley’s College of Letters and Science cannot use AP credit against the [7</a> course breadth requirement](<a href=“http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/requirement/7breadth.html]7”>http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/requirement/7breadth.html). However, some of the courses that fulfill that requirement, particularly in the sciences, are low level courses that are probably below high school level in rigor (e.g. a physics course that sometimes used a textbook called Physics without Math). So if you mean required breadth when you say “core”, the Berkeley College of Letters and Science “core” is smaller, but less of it can be placed out of with AP credit.</p>
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Med schools do not care for “prestige”. More important are your letters of recommendation, research experience, and GPA.</p>
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<p>But that’s not why I questioned Endicott’s statement. He/she claimed Chicago draws from a larger pool of people from different parts of the country. That’s a false statement, given the Berkeley receives many more OOS applicants than Chicago does. And, while Chicago offers generous scholarships to OOS, Berkeley does not, making Berkeley a very expensive school to go to (only the rich apply and/or admitted) and thus the applicants become self-selective. If only Berkeley offers aide/grants to OOS, Berkeley applicants would probably even quadruple, maybe even more.</p>
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<p>Sorry MrPrince, but the brute fact is USNews ranking isn’t all that accurate. According to USNews, Columbia is superior to Stanford and Caltech, which we all know that it isn’t true. The brute fact is, USNews ranks college convenience not school quality in general, or school prestige and teaching quality in particular. Those sections of the survey go to Berkeley (vs Chicago).</p>
<p>@sentiment I know they don’t care about prestige, but i do… 
Writing in english class is usually not my forte. I usually get 7- low 8s for AP Composition Writing. but if i GO to chicago will i develop my writing or will it be so hard that I will have no chance to adapt? Are the professors there there to teach you how to write or there to grade your writing</p>
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<p>You will learn how to write, and you will adapt. As for whether the professors are there to teach you how to write or there to grade your writing … depends on the professor, I’d say. HUM professors tend to be more helpful re: actual writing; since all first-years take HUM, most of them will pretty much assume that you can’t write a strong, convincing argument (since most high school students simply don’t know how to write) and grade and help you accordingly. (In other words, use office hours!) Additionally, you’ll be concurrently enrolled in a HUM writing seminar with a writing TA, who will generally agree to look over your papers and give you suggestions, and there are many writing tutors available to help you with your papers if you choose to go to them. Speaking from personal experience, these writing tutors are quite helpful your first year here; many of them won’t have read the texts you’ll be referencing - your best bet would be to go to your writing TA for more specific help - but they can help you organize and clean up your papers.</p>
<p>In short: Lots of resources for people who struggle with writing.</p>
<p>That being said, 7-8s are quite good; I don’t know where you’re getting the impression that they’re bad. FWIW, I received 6-8s (and a few rare 9s) in my AP English classes, and I’ve yet to receive lower than a B+ here on any paper that I took seriously.</p>
<p>neltharion, can you say a little about other factors (besides writing) that affect your grades at Chicago? What about testing for example? Can you characterize the frequency, length, difficulty, or format of exams in the first year or two of your courses?</p>
<p>Here are a few sample “Thought Questions” from an old Chicago publication that accompanied the syllabus for a Core biology sequence:
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<p>I don’t really know if these still represent the kinds of problems the faculty likes to toss out in readings and discussion sections, if not on exams, for the Core biology courses. (Source: [Powers</a> of the Mind: The Reinvention of Liberal Learning in America - Google Books](<a href=“Powers of the Mind: The Reinvention of Liberal Learning in America - Donald N. Levine - Google Books”>Powers of the Mind: The Reinvention of Liberal Learning in America - Donald N. Levine - Google Books))</p>
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<p>Aha, that makes a bit more sense. I was a little confused by Berkeley’s website; I was under the impression that the American History and American Cultures formed the bulk of the “core.” (sorry, core is just shorter than typing ‘required breadth’ 
) How do requirements vary across Cal’s various undergraduate colleges?</p>
<p>I think you are ultimately correct about the difference between required breadth and a common core, but the fact that actual Core classes at Chicago (Hum, Sosc, Civ) are not part of any major or department would lead me to draw parallels between those classes and the American History/Cultures requirement, rather than the more departmental/elective required breadth.</p>
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<p>IRL, as a member of the medical profession, it’s your med school alma mater that you’re going to be wearing on your chest, not your undergraduate college.</p>
<p>As far as writing goes, I was in about your situation vis a vis performance on AP Comp, and I’ve been getting B+'s and A-'s in my writing classes. Now, those might not be up to pre-med standards, but I’m sure if I had put in more effort (i.e. not writing papers the night before) those could have easily been A-'s and A’s. YMWV</p>
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<p>American History and Institutions is often fulfilled by high school courses in the subject. If not already fulfilled, then it can be fulfilled by taking a course from a specified list, but the same course can be used to fulfill other requirements. The same “doubling up” also applies to the American Cultures requirement. These are university-wide, not just College of Letters and Science.</p>
<p>The College of Engineering’s breadth requirements are six courses in humanities and social studies; at most two of them can be fulfilled with AP credit. At least two of the humanities and social studies courses must be junior or senior level courses. (The engineering majors require plenty of math and science, so that is not a concern for breadth requirements.)</p>
<p>But note that there is considerable student choice in the courses taken to fulfill the breadth requirements; there is no single course or set of courses specified for every student, if that is what you mean by “core”.</p>
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<p>Very roughly, by quarter:</p>
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<li>HUM: 2-3 papers, 1-2 presentations, in-class participation, sometimes weekly response “papers” depending on the professor.</li>
<li>SOSC: 2-3 papers, 1-2 presentations, in-class participation, sometimes a final exam depending on the sequence and professor. (I’ve noticed Classics of Social and Political Thought in particular tends to give final exams in addition to assigning papers. From what I’ve heard, so long as you’ve read all the material, you’ll be fine.)</li>
<li>Civ (extremely variable): 0-3+ papers, 1-2 presentations, in-class participation, sometimes a midterm, final exam. (Midterm and exam consisted of a set of IDs requiring regurgitation of facts, followed by a short essay that was more conceptual and broad. For example: “Write about the history of historiography and the issues one encounters in this field.”)</li>
<li>Math: 1-2 midterms, final exam, problem sets.</li>
<li>Core Bio: 1-2 papers on any topic whatsoever within a given subfield (e.g. evolution, etc.), lab, weekly quizzes.</li>
<li>Bio-topics (extremely variable): 1 final paper, 4-5 quizzes, attendance and participation in discussion sections. I also wrote two extra papers for this class, one a research proposal and the other a research paper discussing my findings.</li>
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<p>I’m in an art sequence right now, and looking at the syllabus: class participation (attendance and participation in discussion sections), midterm, final exam, eight short responses, two papers. The midterm and final will probably include IDs (date, material, artist, title, etc.) and analyses of those pieces of art.</p>
<p>Exams/quizzes/midterms in the classes I’ve taken so far tend to be very fair and doable if you’ve been keeping up with the readings and if you listen in class. (By which I mean, you should at least be able to manage a B+, if not higher. And obviously, if you don’t keep up with the readings, and the professor just happens to ask about a topic you haven’t reviewed, you’re screwed.) Finals are two hours. Midterms usually are taken during class-time.</p>
<p>From my experiences, HUM teaches you how to make a solid argument, SOSC teaches you how to synthesize the various texts you’ve read in class, and Civ teaches you how to write a convincing research paper. Of these three, SOSC is by far the most difficult, IMHO.</p>
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<p>I actually can’t recall anything remotely resembling those questions in my Core Bio class. But then again, this is the dreaded Core Bio we’re talking about (i.e. the one designed for non-Bio majors). I don’t think the class I took even had discussion sections, merely lectures followed immediately by labs that had you counting beans; if it did have discussions sections, I’ve all but forgotten about them. But I’ve heard they recently revised the curriculum so that it’s more challenging, but I’m not entirely sure how much it’s changed. You’d have to ask someone who’s taken it this school year for more feedback on it. FWIW, I’m sure the Bio class for majors and the AP5 Bio sequence is much more enjoyable and challenging.</p>
<p>That said, my bio-topics class included some questions more similar to the ones you’ve listed - that is, in discussion sections, the questions tended to be more interesting and thought-provoking - and it was infinitely more enjoyable than Core Bio.</p>
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<p>RML, RML, RML…sigh.
What will you gain by questioning reality, RML? The US News Rankings is absolute. Whatever you say, employers use USNWR. That Chinese mom in China uses USNWR. USNWR shows on Yahoo!'s front page every time it’s newly updated. USNWR is widely respect by various people. Instead of cunningly taking portions of the survey to support your Berkeley fetish, I suggest you come back to reality.</p>
<p>As for your Columbia Stanford argument…Over the course of the years, the averaged out rankings of Columbia is lower than Stanford. It’s only recently that Columbia is above Stanford, and that too by 1 point. People aren’t stupid to not notice this. A difference of 1 or 2 points don’t matter too much. Understand?</p>
<p>1) Berkeley is in the 20s. This is fact.
2) Another fact is that its acceptance rate (23%) is high compared to the top USNWR+Brown elites whose admit rate is around 7-14%.
3) Berkeley’s SAT average is much lower than top 10 UNSWR+Brown
4) Berkeley admissions are too number focused and they don’t consider talent and personality as much as the top 10 USNWR do. Being number focused makes it extremely easy for HYPSM+Ivy candidates to get into. Which brings me to my last point
5) Berkeley is a safety school for many
6) The non stop budget cuts</p>
<p>Refute each and every one of my points RML. And I don’t want any “adjusted” reasoning like “Because Berkeley is a public school, lets take in population into consideration and divide SAT scores blah blah blah”
This goes for your favorite PA score reasoning. Because in the real world, no one knows or CARES what PA is. Pertaining to college, all people care about are:
- Prestige (general name recognition/knowledge and USNWR rank) / Academic opportunity
- Fit / Social life
- Cost
- Being happy
- Distance from home / weather</p>
<p>Around 3 of the 5 points are subjective. So this means different things for different people. But there are facts.
Berkeley is cheaper. This is a plus point.
UChicago is more prestigious. This is a plus point.</p>
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<p>Hahaha, irritated would be an understatement, but yeah, you’re right for the most part. Actually I think RML believes Berkeley is even better than YSC and M…</p>
<p>I think I will take my victory over this RML vs MrPrince debate.</p>