Just an observation, but Nondorf seems to have been quite prescient in taking UChicago test optional before this whole SAT scandal hits a year later. The universities named in the scandal are going to have a serious black eye over this.
I would love to know just how many kids they accept who exercised the option not to submit test scores. I have been assuming this was largely cosmetic, and that very few such applicants would be admitted.
More to the point, no one seems to have suborned a UChicago coach to participate in an admissions scam. I think the test fraud was just a sideline to bribing coaches to give recruiting slots to non-athletes (who still needed to have appropriate test scores to seal the deal – maybe even really high ones to give the coach more freedom to recruit lower-scoring kids). No one thinks anyone is getting into one of the hyperselective colleges (including UChicago) solely on the basis of great test scores.
Correct me if I’m not taking your point, @CU123 , but I believe it is that Chicago’s test-optional policy, no matter how it is actually being applied, implies some level of skepticism about the meaningfulness of test scores. The present scandal is in part about the falsifying of scores through outright bribery. It validates that skepticism insofar as it seems like an extreme instance of a more general critique.
I’m curious - per @JHS comment - isn’t it a lot harder to bribe entry into Chicago (or MIT, Caltech, etc.) than a Stanford or Yale or USC?
To scheme a little, how would one do it? Coaches/sports just don’t matter as much, so what’s the side door at the less sporty schools?
I wonder if faculty, professors or even the ao’s could be ‘persuaded.’
Ehh maybe, but much harder to do, no? Faculty (unless it’s their own kids) rarely have a big say in the process, and what could an AO do - convince the MIT higher-ups that the 1420 SAT kid photoshopped in a lacrosse outfit must gain entry? Coaches at D1 schools have a ton of sway.
In addition to the coaches, I wonder who else has the power to admit or deny. I wonder if all schools have the same system for admittance.
@Cue7 I think the Universities come out unscathed. All the press to date really just names the schools involved and I’ve not seen much outrage focused on them. That being said, there could be some knee jerk action in congress that will stir up the whole “Holistic Review” process and this coupled with the Harvard thing could spin up some changes. I don’t think Georgetown, Yale, Stanford will be hurt too much by the press. The others will be forgotten they were even involved. In fact, they are being lumped in with the elite colleges in the press, it might even help them to some extent.
I’m trying to read the meaning of your question? Are you saying he knew that some people needed to be accepted, so he went test optional? I’m not really seeing a connection here between UChicago going test optional and the “Side Door” scandal.
@JHS I think that is the big question. They are going to have to admit some, or it will be called out as a sham. But, I bet you’ll be able to count the total number accepted on your fingers.
Point being that test optional devalues the tests. This in turn affects the academic index used to qualify athletes which seems to be the primary way this scandal occurred. Agree that the schools involved will have little repercussion except for the fact that coaches at these schools took some sort of bribe which is never a good “look”, and does tarnish the reputation. IOW people will know that cheaters got into these institutions via the institutions own policies/personnel.
I am curious as to what will happen to the students whose parents were part of the scandal who are still in school? I imagine that they will not be booted and allowed to graduate.
Does anyone think the rate of cheating on SATs is within an order of magnitude, or two, of the level of cheating by students for grades in high school (not to mention the potential influence of rich donor parents over the treatment of their kids in private high schools, maybe public too)? Think if I send a note to Chicago about this, they’ll become skeptical of grades and class rank and make grades and class rank optional too? (Mom to a DD who, despite being pretty spacey, could still not help becoming aware of very frequent cheating at her high school, where the excellent school newspaper would run articles on cheating every so often with statistical and direct proof of cheating and comments by teachers about how it would be too hard to create two exams or whatever…)
The athletic admissions preference at some of these colleges were bound to topple sooner or later. The entire system is based on a coach giving a rank order list to admissions. Without having a good way to verify the coach’s picks, this leaves admissions staff relying on an honor system. In most cases, the coach’s word was gold, and never questioned.
At least for other talents (musical, academic, etc) there are other experts within the university who can be called in for another opinion. But the D1 recruiting system was prime for abuse. I’m expecting the colleges implicated to overhaul how coaches picks are vetted.
Absolutely, every one of the “hard to get into” colleges are going to take a close look at there athletic admits including UChicago even though its Div III. After all they are a pretty good Div III school as far as Div III athletics go.
I believe UChicago has always listed test scores as considered, not important or very important as some schools do.
That may be true but as many times as I’ve seen UChicago at the top or near the top of colleges with the highest average SAT score I would wonder if that is accurate.
@idad those sound like CDS designations - UChicago doesn’t file a CDS. Did you notice that information elsewhere?
@JBStillFlying posted
Nondorf mentions here that the average SAT score was well above 1500. This would place UChicago near the top.
https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2018/5/3/university-chicagos-acceptance-rate-plummets-7-2-c/
@sgopal2 sorry - I wasn’t very clear. My question was where did they ever list test scores as “considered”? Have never read that. Certainly they say they review applications holistically and that you are more than just a test score and so forth. All schools say that. But as you have pointed out Dean Nondorf places a lot of emphasis on the score ranges. They care.
The new test optional policy is actually within the context of the empower initiative announced in 2018. The thinking behind it is that first-generation students or those who hail from under represented communities do not have access to the test prep resources that everybody else does. The average applicant will of course be expected to produce a test score. There may be a couple of exceptions to this, of course, as each applicant is distinct. But anyone who did not produce a test score will have had to demonstrate exceptional ability in other areas so that the test score wouldn’t be necessary, it’s a high bar, not a wide back door for anyone who doesn’t test well.
Even though he was joking, another prophetic statement from Nondorf talking about the class of 2022. Let’s hope it didn’t actually apply.
“This is the best, most amazing class we ever had, I’m just gonna say it,” Nondorf said. “At least statistically speaking, you are the smartest, you are the most selective, you are the most diverse…. You name it, you are it.”
He joked, “Your average SATs were well above 1500 this year, which is insane, so you’re very good at cheating.”