My (european) daughter is in the lucky position of having to decide between Uchicago and the dual BA at Trinity/Columbia. She has already turned down some smaller and outstanding liberal art colleges. We are torn- both offer superb experiences though Chicago is clearly the most traditional one. She is very academic and superb at writing and humanities (Dual BA wd be English) and dislikes maths. She thinks Chicago might be very cut-throat and not oriented towards humanities or creative subjects. Iām concerned that the Trinity portion will be very old fashioned and that dorms are far from campus. Chicago has a much lower acceptance rate (6% vs 30%) but is it more prestigious? Would she be limiting her oportunities by having to major in English at the Dual BA? What is Trinity like academically? Pastorally? In terms of clubs/extracurriculars? Are both cores (Columbiaās and Chicagos) equally focused on maths? Of course itās all made harder by the fact that she canāt visit either before decision dayā¦ (Financials are the same for both) Any guidance or thoughts wd be greatly appreciated! We are running out of time! Thanks so much in advance.
What goals does she have? How committed is she to English?
Thanks for asking. She loves writing and, in an ideal world, would love to have a career that involved writing. She certainly likes English and is very good at it (but she is also superb at history, philosophy). Itās more that if she was exposed to other subjects sheād get a more well-rounded education. And she might be taken by human rights law, ethics or sociology and at the Dual BA she probably wouldnāt be exposed to many other subjects (in her two years at Trinity 80% of her courses would be English). And you cannot swap majors in the dual BA program. The core at Chicago would take a considerable amount of time and effort as it would mean sciences and maths (more than at Columbia) but would also broaden her knowledge of humanities and she could also do much lore creative writing, history, sociology and other things that sheād engage with. But sheād also need to do calculus which would be an unwelcome challenge!
Iām in favor of a well-rounded education. How many 18 year olds truly have a clear idea of what they really enjoy and excel at (even if they think they do)?
The dual degree program is designed for American students to have the benefit of an education combining experiences in a European country with those at an elite American institution. It was not designed for a European student. Unless there is some specific benefit for this student of studying at Trinity or in Dublin, I think the dual degree program waters down the experience.
Columbia and Chicago are equally prestigious. A student from Europe will inevitably spend some time acclimating to her immediate surroundings in a new country. After her first year, she will have 3 more years to benefit from that initial invest of acclimatizing. The dual degree program will shorten the benefit of that initial adjustment period.
University of Chicago is the clear winner for me in this situation.
First of all, congratulations!
We have a daughter graduating from UChicago this year. It is not at all cut-throat, but rather quite collaborative. And given the core and lack of a major engineering department, there is a strong liberal arts vibe to the place.
Columbia and UChicago are similar in a few ways. They are both located in big cities, have a strong core, and offer an intense learning experience. They are academic peers.
But politically, they are very different. UChicago has a strong culture of free speech, including allowing speech that you may not agree with. Now, all elite colleges are liberal, but UChicagoās free speech mantra makes it moderately liberal. In contrast, Columbia is pretty far left liberal.
At the beginning of her senior year, my D was sure her first choice was going to be Columbia, as she loves NYC. But after investigating the atmosphere, it dropped way down on her list and she (a moderate liberal) happily chose UChicago.
Since everybody who has posted so far has come down on the UChicago side, Iāll throw a few counterpoints out.
This is a red herring: US and European acceptance rates are not comparable. The dual degree means that she ends up with a Columbia degree- and Columbia has a lower acceptance rate than Chicago (5%).
What kind of opportunities? to take classes in other areas? both Columbia & Chicago have a core that makes sure there is exposure to a range of disciplines, so she can have some history, philosophy, etc. (note that Columbia has science requirement for the core, but not a math requirement). for grad schools? depends on the type of grad school - law? nope, economics yup. jobs? internships will matter more than major for anybody doing an UG arts degree.
TCD is an adjustment for US students, but should be familiar-ish to a European student. You are expected to be responsible for managing your own work, and there is not a lot of continuing assessment (quizzes, daily homework). Obviously, in English there are essays! The English program is one of the stars of TCD and the range of authors that come for lectures, seminars, etc is pretty dazzling. While other members of the TCD community can sometimes come to the lectures, the students get things like writing workshops and coffees with the speaker. The library resources are amazing.
Pastoral care? hmmm I would say on the high end for a European uni, but not as hand-holdy as a US uni.
Clubs & ECs are a strong part of the experience. TCD has more of a campus feel than many city or European unis, and it is the hub for student life.
There are some new dorms that are right at campus (on campus housing exists, but she would be gone before she was eligible), but if she ends up in Trinity Hall (the farthest) itās not that big a deal (people cycle in & out regularly). Also, the Milltown stop of the Luas (light rail) is just around the corner (the stop is at the gates of a local school, in a very safe residential area- I used to drop our lot off at school, and jump on the Luas to go in to TCD when I was teaching* at TCD).
*Engineering, not English!
UChicago and Columbia are peers, 100%. Both are ālife of the mindā universities where learning for the sake of learning is totally cool. Columbiaās core is more stringent, while Chicagoās offers options.
Then itās New York or Chicago. Both are 20-30 minutes(ish) from downtown.
But she would be at UChicago all four years. Sheād be able to make friends off the bat there, and be with them her entire time. The Trinity/Columbia option breaks up her experience. This could be important from a social perspective.
Had she been directly admitted to Columbia, it would quite literally be NYC vs. Chicago. UChicago has more grass and trees and birds than Columbia, but really itās NYC vs. Chicago.
But she has to spend time at Trinity first. Trinity is a fine liberal arts college, and time there might te enriching, but really it comes down to Chicago and Columbia. Direct peers academically. Would she rather spend all four years at UChicago, or have the hybrid Trinity/Columbia experience?
Given that TCD has particularly strong program in the studentās primary area of interest, that is a feature, not a bug.
It is true that dual programs are ābroken upā, but in this case the cohort moves together from Dublin to NY, so there is a core group that is together all 4 years.
Though this dual BA is through Columbia GS, which has a higher acceptance rate. Though granted, I donāt see why this should matter much anyway.
Anyway, my thinking is that at the U of C, sheād have more flexibility to explore and change majors, double major, minor, dabble in various fields. Wanting to do something with writing may not necessarily mean wanting to concentrate on English.
I have to admit that Iām still a bit hazy about even āwhy uniā, much less āwhy these 2 optionsā. Maybe because to me, the price tag is immense so thereās almost no way to justify paying to study English at these costs from a purely ROI perspective (though Iāll grant that that may not matter to the OP), but Iām personally more of a fan of majoring in philosophy or history among the liberal arts.
But surely that is the key point! you might think that philosophy or history are better majors (though I am skeptical the ROI on an English degree is meaningfully different than a philosophy or history degree). Other posters have noted that she shouldnāt have to make a single choice now. But the point is that this student already knows that she is passionate about studying English. and is looking simply to be able to take other subjects instead of only English classes (as she would have to in Europe/the UK), which she can do in both programs.
āFar left liberalā in America is pretty centrist in Europe, which is where this student is coming from.
My understanding of this dual degree program is that the first 2 years are at Trinity, Dublin. Does a student in this program still take the Columbia core but just at the Dublin location? I honestly donāt know and thought you might.
iirc they do a part of the Core at TCD and the rest at Columbia. There is (well, was- Iām a little out of touch at this point, so things might have changed) a set of classes that Columbia has approved as being comparable/equivalent to the Columbia Core courses.
Prezbucky, Chicago has āmore grass and treesā than NYC?
I know that Chicago has done an incredible job developing rooftop gardens, but on the ground, NYC is 25% parkland and Chicago 10%. NYC not only has Central Park, but it has Prospect Park, Bronx Park, Van Cortlandt Park, Flushing Meadows Park, and multiple large parks in Staten Island as well as miles of national seashore and miles of river walks. Those are only the large parks. Almost every neighborhood in the city has smaller parks and boulevards. Just within the neighborhood around Columbia are Morningside Park and Riverside Park, both of which are excellent green spaces for jogging or biking.
A little different. The world isnāt on one political spectrum. Someone can be very far left on economics or even social freedom and yet abhor cancel culture, PC, etc. The (continental) European Left (even the far left there) doesnāt seem to be embracing the thinking of the American/Anglo far left.
Are you sure her choice of degree at UChicago would require calculus? Math is required in the Core, but not all majors require a calculus sequence.
http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/mathematicalsciencescore/
The OP said āShe loves writing and, in an ideal world, would love to have a career that involved writing. She certainly likes English and is very good at it (but she is also superb at history, philosophy). Itās more that if she was exposed to other subjects sheād get a more well-rounded education. And she might be taken by human rights law, ethics or sociologyā.
I do not read that as āpassionate/certain about studying Englishā.
On aggregate, philosophy majors do tend to earn more than history majors who do tend to earn more than English majors. All require and develop writing skills. (Analytic) philosophy also hones logic (as well as overall thinking) skills to a sharp edge, which actually makes transitioning to law as well as quantitative/coding fields pretty easy. IMO, history provides more insights in to human systems, which may be why those majors tend to do better.
Thank you. You are right. Iām not sure that sheāll be thrilled about āMultimedia programmingā or āStatisticsā but sheāll certainly think it an improvement on āCalculusā!