UChicago's Uniqueness and "UChicago Derangement Syndrome" Revisited

I’ve been lurking on this forum for a while and I now think I have some thoughts and observations to add. First, some background. My spouse and I both got our B.A.s and graduate degrees (in humanities fields) from Yale, I also went to graduate school at Oxford. Thanks to my career (in “the higher journalism”); my friendships with a lot of academics; my occasional lectures, talks, and seminars on campuses; and my family background (my dad was a university professor), I believe that I have a glimpse–a partial and distorted one, no doubt–into trends and developments in academe.

Our son attends what has traditionally considered the most academically rigorous New England prep school. My spouse and I strongly encouraged his inclination to apply early to UChicago, and he was lucky enough to be admitted in December. His test scores, unusually rigorous course of study, very high GPA, national prizes, and high-achieving activities would have made him a competitive candidate for admission to any college. But he believes, and his parents have long believed, that the University of Chicago offers an unrivaled–and unique–learning environment. He loves drama and sports and certainly does not plan to pursue a career in academe, but he thinks that college is, or should be, well, primarily an intellectual activity and that the only real point of attending an institution of higher learning is to immerse oneself in “the life of the mind.” Given those priorities, and after visiting and/or querying friends at HYPS, etc., he became convinced that UChicago was the best place to continue his education.

To him, and to his parents, the main feature that distinguishes the College of the University Chicago from its peers is its longstanding and straightforward (and, in its own way, modest) embrace of its mission to provide its undergraduates with a rigorous education, and to define broadly for its students what they must learn to emerge from the College as educated people. That is, the College of UChicago still seems to define its goal almost wholly in scholarly and intellectual terms. Our son examined closely the explicit and implicit mission statements of, and the admissions policies pursued by, UChicago’s peer institutions. From that endeavor he came to believe that those schools elevate the pursuit of other goals, however worthy, as of equal or nearly importance to–and thus place those goals in competition with–their academic purpose.

From my understanding, there’s really nothing new about this difference. The colleges of HYPS have always seen their primary mission as nurturing regional and national leaders through the inculcation and advancement of certain non-intellectual values. Those values have changed over time (from, say, a muscular Christianity, to a WASP-led progressivism, to today’s “social justice”), but the mission has remained the same. In contrast, it seems to us that UChicago takes and has always taken an academically and intellectually purer path. It has sought to train its students minds and has implicitly taken the position that what the College’s graduates choose to to do with their intellectual training is their business. It’s an approach that was pretty much unconcerned with outcomes–again, be those outcomes the creation of leaders in business and politics, or the inculcation of “character.” In his college search, our son kept saying that most elite colleges seemed to see it as their goal “to make the world a better place” (echoing the tagline of the series “Silicon Valley”). Again, that goal might be laudable, but it is really unrelated to the purpose of higher education, which is the acquisition and pursuit of knowledge–however much that acquisition and pursuit might ultimately contribute to that 'Silicon Valley" goal. Certainly, many graduates of the College of UChicago have made and will make the world a better place. Others have pursued and will pursue pure scholarship with no worldly application; others have pursued and will pursue social justice; others might pursue revolution–or reaction. Most graduates, of course, have made and will make little or no impact on the wider world–but their minds and therefore their lives have been and will be immeasurably enriched by the demanding training that their UChicago education gave them. This isn’t to suggest that a great undergraduate education cannot be pursued at Chicago’s peer institutions. But because those institutions define their purposes so expansively and so extracurricularly, those purposes (which crucially of course include the supposed enrichment that accompanies the recruitment and fielding of 30 or so D1 athletic teams) can and will work at cross purposes with the academic and intellectual pursuit that defines UChicago’s traditional mission.

Do some of the changes at UChicago threaten that traditional mission? I’ll leave it to others on this forum, who are far more familiar with the past and present UChicago, to debate and decide that question. It seems to me that the answer is “yes, probably.” I, for one, I’m concerned about the apparent intensification of interest in attracting more and better athletes. And while the College’s efforts to secure better jobs for its graduates is commendable, I’m concerned that that those efforts might inculcate a pre-professional ethos on campus. (Also, a lot of the trends in academe, itself, seem to me hostile to the University of Chicago’s traditional mission. I’m less than thrilled with a lot of the upper-level course offerings in the humanities, especially in English, which seem to be academically trendy and to be striving to be relevant to contemporary, and ephemeral, concerns.)

But I also know that so many of the changes at UChicago are laudatory. Our son, for one, was certainly not interested in attending an urban university that could not guarantee four years of campus housing. In the ancient days of my own college search, the U of C seemed in some ways ideal–but it also seemed unnecessarily grim. More important, given the then pretty wide disparity between the median SAT scores of students at UChicago compared to those at HYP, I had a sense (echoed by at least one contributor to this forum) that not all of UChicago’s students were of top academic quality. To the extent that my sense was correct, the situation is now completely different. (I should add that in the late 1970s/early 1980s, the median SAT scores at Stanford, which had not yet fully emerged as the world-class university that is today, were also significantly below those of HYP).

Very interesting, @Mom2Melcs . We sometimes hear it said on this board that UChicago is never the choice of anyone who thinks he or she has a decent shot at getting in to HYPSM. We sometimes also hear that there is really nothing very distinctive about the U of C as compared with HYPS - except for its failing to be quite as ivyish and prestigious as them. Your testimony is interesting on both those points. You and your son reached contrary conclusions after conducting a careful review of an array of elite schools. Your son had other options but chose this one without preconceptions and after doing the research, even though he forfeited the Yale legacy card in doing that. Bravo!

On this board we argue endlessly - both Chicago’s detractors as well as its supporters - about rankings and the reliability and meaning of the underlying metrics. All this is great fun. Nevertheless, you have placed the emphasis where it should be - on the particularity and quality of the education and student cultures at the contending schools.

There are many reasons why a kid might choose another school over the U of C, but a certain kind of kid will not only recognize Chicago’s special character but see in it the perfect place for him. Your son is Exhibit A. He’s in for a helluva ride!

@Mom2Melcs Your observation and analysis is exemplary. I salute you.

Happy New Year everybody! I think I can add some perspective here as well. I picked UChicago and applied ED (made it!) giving up what some would characterize as a coveted legacy hook at Harvard. We have had many discussions in my family about college and while we recognized that the Harvard brand name is very strong, both my Dad and I did not feel that it was the right place for undergrad for a person with my interests. I primarily wanted a well rounded academic experience, which while possible at Harvard takes quite a lot of planning, since the institution itself is not as focused as UChicago on providing a well grounded broad based undergraduate education to its students. This is quite evident from the structure of their curriculum and requirements for graduation and the rigor of their general education requirements

I specially wanted to explore American history, economics and theater arts (my fantasy of what it takes to be a more informed American citizen) while getting a degree and felt that I could achieve this better at Chicago with its core curriculum and options for majors, minors and electives than I could at Harvard.

My family is also not a big fan of where Harvard’s administration has taken the College in terms of staying true to its motto of “Veritas”. I will just leave it at that :slight_smile: I felt that UChicago’s motto kind of sang to me and I felt that today’s Chicago fulfills its motto more authentically than Harvard does.

I also have this streak in me to just do things a little bit differently, so when all my friends just assumed that I would be heading to Harvard by cashing in my legacy card, I was a little turned off by that presumption.

Having said all that, I think any dedicated student can get a great education at any of these institutions and it is a blessing to be living in a country with so many wonderful choices.

@Mom2Melcs very interesting take on the outcomes-be-damned. Made me look at colleges in a different way.

Also, it may be trite, but when we were applying to schools, we read the motto of each school and loved the UChicago motto:

Crescat scientia; vita excolatur
Latin for: Let knowledge grow from more to more; and so be human life enriched

Clarification: Marlowe1 writes:

“You and your son reached contrary conclusions after conducting a careful review of an array of elite schools.”

In some ways I loved being an undergraduate at Yale–and, because I met my spouse there, I would never trade having gone there. But not a week went by when I did not think that Chicago (or Columbia) would have been a better choice. Yalies were incredibly smart, accomplished, and ambitious, but with very, very few exceptions intellectual and academic discussion stopped at the exit to the lecture halls/seminar rooms. Good grades for law school and interview opportunities at McKinsey/Goldman dominated student concerns. This, the early Reagan years, was probably a particularly “preprofessional” era at Yale, and, although in giving talks there recently I notice that the atmosphere has greatly changed, I wouldn’t say that it’s become more intellectual (though I could be wrong).

In choosing not to apply to UChicago (I was accepted EA at Yale), my primary concern was the SAT scores. I knew and know now that the SAT is an imperfect measure of academic ability, but I found the disparities between Chicago and its peer colleges troubling. Again, obviously today that is most definitely not an issue. But a question arises: It seems to me that from the Hutchins era through (say) the early-mid-1970s Chicago attracted, and was known to attract, the most intellectual students in the country. That reputation obviously became self-fulfilling, and that Chicago didn’t restrict the number of Jews probably helped a lot (as did its stalwart commitment to free expression, which meant that it was a home to really smart left-wingers). My impression is that, for a variety of reasons (including, I’d guess, the end of the quota system at HYP), the College of UChicago suffered something of a relative and absolute decline in the general intellectual caliber of its undergraduates in from the mid-1970s through the '80s. Again, to be sure, U of C was always self-selective, and a certain kind of brilliant student (one with more conviction and courage than I had) would always choose Chicago, but maybe the brand of the UChicago B.A. was somewhat tarnished in that era. I wonder if UChicago still has to counteract that legacy to an extent. After all, the gatekeepers and opinion formers in the culture and the professions would have probably been undergraduates during that brief period of U of C’s relative decline.

Chicago does not exist in a bubble. To some extent all colleges have a greater pre-professional ethos than used to be the case, reflective of the current concerns of the students and their parents.
The athletes at our school who were recruited by Chicago were capable but not intellectual and chose other D1 opportunities if offered.

@Mom2Melcs, thanks for your well-written posts, and congrats to your son. Do you mind sharing if he applied EDI or EA?

Thank you also for bringing up the term which newer visitors to this board like myself are not familiar with. I googled up that old thread and found it, frankly, hilarious:)

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/university-chicago/2087830-uchicago-derangement-syndrome-p1.html

@Mom2Melcs , I too have a hunch, though I was not around the campus at all during those years, that the 70’s and 80’s were indeed a bad patch at the College. The heady elixir of the Hutchins era had by then been used up. Not only was there a certain loss of belief in the mission of the College within the University but the greater society had entered a hedonistic phase that did not favor the kind of UChicago seriousness and intensity that had previously appealed to a certain subset of the young. The deterioration of Hyde Park and the city of Chicago did not help. No doubt there were fumbles of the administration in marketing and improving student life. Though I hadn’t thought of this before, you are probably right in speculating that Chicago had perhaps lost a certain advantage it had previously enjoyed in attracting highly intelligent kids when the ivy league schools lifted their quotas, went co-ed and generally entered a more meritocratic era. There were feedback loops among all these factors, and the result may well have been a diminution of the appeal of the College and hence of the caliber and focus of the student body. How all that began to change in the nineties is another story, often told on this board and canonized in Dean Boyer’s history.

@TheVulcan , you take us back to a memorable thread from yesteryear. Thanks for that. Does any other school attract debates of this intensity? That is a good question in its own right. It seems that @Mom2Melcs remembered this one. If so our work here was not in vain. When I am in the middle of such debates I often wonder what visitors to this forum must make of them. Some, l assume, will be very much put off by all that intensity and even fury. I have always hoped that there would be others who would glean from them certain intangibles of culture and typology characterizing the place. Indeed I am bold enough to wonder whether these discussions contributed at all to the decisions made by you and your son, by @surelyhuman and her parents, and perhaps by others.

@marlowe1, I am hesitant to go too far down this rabbit hole again:), but since you asked, I will say this:

While I have not read this board until the decisions where about to roll out, and son’s doomed UChicago EA application :slight_smile: was mainly a function of it being possible to do along with applying to his top two choices (and academic and cultural matches), the process of contemplating his UChicago application has been very beneficial in terms of crystallizing his message.

Even though he did not, deliberately, try to convince any of the schools he applied to that they are his first and only love (and some of them did not expect him to as they do not consider demonstrated interest), he did use UChicago’s “Find X” prompt to express his love of pure mathematics, applications-be-damned, his passion for learning for its own sake, and his wish to live “the life of the mind”. (He did not, however, profess to love The Core:-)

Similar unapologetic message was relayed to other schools, institutional-missions-be-damned (though it aligns pretty well with ones of his top choices).

“UDS” poster here! I’m one of the alums (from the 90s) who exhorts the spectacular education, but decries the lackluster brand (read: it doesn’t have the universal recognition of many peers).

The education sounds like it is still great (albeit, perhaps a bit watered down). When I attended the student-faculty ratio was absurd, something like 3 to 1 or 4 to 1, and very few classes were crowded. (Now, some classes are literally videostreamed, as seen here: https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2019/10/9/college-video-stream-lectures-overflow-classrooms/)

Your lucky son will probably fit in better at Chicago than Yale, although Chicago probably doesn’t open as many doors (across as many industries) as Yale. Everything’s a tradeoff. If he loves Chicago’s climate, does it really matter students are getting three offers from consulting firms, as opposed to 5?

At the same time, even now, students still wring their hands about Chicago’s lackluster brand. Why, an article just came out about that this week! https://www.chicagomaroon.com/article/2020/1/5/uchicago-state-school/ (“UChicago? Is that a State School?”)

To sum, Chicago has a great intellectual climate. I’d just be more comfortable if the school had a $20B endowment, and/or a hook to maintain/elevate its status (e.g., being a member of the Ivy League).

I’ve said on other threads, but it’s why the administration is trying to make it the “Academic Ivy.” (See the above article, which mentions the “Harvardization” of Chicago.)

This is not bad. Hopefully it’ll get Chicago closer to that $20B endowment I wish it had.

Was hoping that Cue would weigh in on this discussion! Also, @JHS is a Yalie who sent his kids to UChicago, so hopefully he’ll show up as well.

While we don’t know all the gritty details behind either UChicago’s or Yale’s placement stats, they seem comparable when it comes to industry placement (finance, consulting, non-profit/gov’t, education, etc.). Last time I checked, UChicago and Yale had identical stats on percentage graduating with plans in place (including grad school). So not sure exactly how UChicago will be at an effective disadvantage (if at a disadvantage at all).

Totally understand @Mom2Melcs unease with some of the recent changes, since they tend to be associated with a focus on things other than the intellectual life (on most college campuses, anyway). First of all, it’s probably very difficult to assess the full impact of a change before many years have passed. For instance, Sonnenschein’s proposal to “lighten” the Core back in the 90’s was highly controversial, but 20 years later it seems downright wise. So we probably won’t understand how the wisdom of implementing ED or TO - or how beefing up D3 athletics or career services - truly impacts outcomes till long after the first classes under these changes have graduated. Second, the College has a historical standard that the intellectual life must be preserved, whatever changes may (or need to) occur. So, for instance, when they decided to expand, they had to figure out how to do it in a way that increased academic strength! Third, UChicago is the Avis to HYP’s Hertz (so they have to try harder, for those who weren’t born yet or don’t remember the old ad campaign). The College has ‘em beat on curriculum, so they choose to focus on how they are “as good” at the other stuff. Some of that effort is brand building after so many decades of neglect, some is probably a deliberate and public reversal of old attitudes, and some is probably just plain ole’ competition. Fortunately, they can only do so much with D3 athletics, and the beefed-up career advancement not only risks a preprofessional ethos, but it also assures those wanting to attend the College for its intellectual culture - as well as their parents! - that they needn’t sacrifice a top career in order to do so. In other words, these other things that can improve college life have been introduced as an enhancement to, rather than a substitute for, UChicago’s academic mission. Also - no way around it - for the most part at UChicago you have to go to class.

@TheVulcan , I applaud your son for honestly portraying his true interests in his app to the U of C. But if those interests did not include any enthusiasm for the content of the courses comprised in the Core, then I equally applaud Chicago Admissions for sussing that out and passing over his app in favor of one that did. The choice wasn’t between forthright honesty (your son’s) as against insincère sycophancy (the kid’s whose app was accepted in his place) but between differing but equally honest educational aspirations of two different kids. Chicago chooses the kids whose aspirations fit its concept. If there are fakers I trust they are also detected and politely despatched.

On the matter of enhanced career counselling, I do not see anything wrong with this in principle - it is only one of many moving parts in the evolution of the College from the days of Hutchins, who famously disdained the sullying effects of the professions and all worldly activities necessary to make a living, raise a family and cobble together a life in the adult world. However, his view (and my own, for what it’s worth) would include this paradox: They who do not focus too soon or too narrowly on practical matters thereby develop a larger view of the human condition leading to ultimate practical success in life, at least as measured by the fullest use of one’s powers, the more complete comprehension of a complex world, and the mental reserves necessary to deal with misfortune. “Ripeness is all,” someone once said.

@marlowe1, they are, of course, within their right, and whether they suspected he was a likely admit at the other EA places, or just too STEM-focused for their liking, they would have been correct on both counts. They weren’t one of his top choices, and he wasn’t one of theirs. C’est la vie.

I suspect, however, that they are willing to be significantly more accommodating to those applying in binding rounds (they have to be, mathematically) - and when he went to withdraw his app they presented him with a choice to switch to EDII, but got “politely despatched”:slight_smile:

@marlowe1, loved the second half of your comment about the sullying effects of the professions:)

I tell my son that even though I studied math and computer science, like he plans to, my favorite subject in college was, unexpectedly, philosophy, and if I didn’t have to make a living, that is what I would study instead:)

Surely there are decent philosophy classes available where he is headed:), and I am encouraging him to partake in some of them.

…However, the reality of the modern world (which I am sure I do not have to explain to you, @marlowe1) is such that in order to be able to meaningfully contribute to many fields (particularly in STEM), one has to specialize early and fervently. The time of the polymaths of old is gone - something my son reflected on in his essays to some other colleges.

@JBStillFlying said: “Last time I checked, UChicago and Yale had identical stats on percentage graduating with plans in place (including grad school). So not sure exactly how UChicago will be at an effective disadvantage (if at a disadvantage at all).”

Yale actually has an array of data on this, found here: https://ocs.yale.edu/outcomes/statistics-reports#toc7

The reports are fairly good - they feature Yale grads first destination after college, and a look at grads 4 years after graduation. The website includes data for the past 6 years (with info on the Class of 2019 coming soon).

I’m not sure what data JBStillFlying has, aside from one solitary, and fairly sparse, career report Chicago has published in the past 5 years, found here: https://collegeadmissions.uchicago.edu/files/documents/class-2017-outcomes.pdf

While percentages of grads heading to certain industries may be similar, my hunch is that Yale grads cluster at the “most elite” destinations more tightly. Yale grads are amongst the most coveted commodities out there, and they’ve been this way for a long time. Chicago, outside of academia, is still a relative newcomer here.

(Interestingly, per the Yale 4-year out reports, almost 17% of the Yale Class of 2014 went on to attain PhDs. While we may point to Chicago being very academic, Yale’s number is extremely high - certainly similar to, or maybe greater than, the current Chicago numbers. Chicago doesn’t publish this data, so we have no way of knowing.)

At bottom, though, this is somewhat immaterial. Amongst its peers, I’d give Chicago an A- for overall outcomes, and Yale an A+. If you love Chicago’s culture, probably not worth giving it up for a marginal benefit in door-opening.

Given that SAT scores actually rose once they instituted ED, there’s no evidence that they make any such accommodation. There IS plenty of evidence that they have passed over perfect stats and stellar accomplishments in the ED round for applicants who apparently had something else that impressed the admissions committee.

The “conventional wisdom” on ED is that universities will happily compromise on the quality of the class a bit in order to get a binding commitment. From what I’ve observed over the past few years, this “rule” no longer applies at the top. If the ED pools are as academically strong as regular round, then schools can be choosy and use “holistic” admissions to build the kind of class they wish to even among those signalling “demonstrated interest” with their ED agreement. Perhaps the “Why Us” essay becomes a crucial factor at this point to reveal “demonstrated fit.”

Interesting and perhaps revelatory comment. Some of my “stemmiest” friends from HS (one of whom was admitted to Stanford, Cal-Berkeley and Cal Tech to study physics) were totally into philosophy. My husband (UChicago PhD in Economics) loved studying philosophy in HS and college. My older brother (PhD MIT) received another doctorate on the subject. My nephew double majored in philosophy and CS at a T20. And my son, who was thinking social sciences when arriving at UChicago this fall, has shifted course after one quarter of Hum and Sosc and is considering philosophy for his major. Not one of these individuals has had or would have any difficulty making a living, probably because they are all smart and the world tends to enjoy employing smart people. The other thing they have in common is a strong attraction to the humanities and to a liberal arts curriculum. I strongly suspect that brilliant stemmy kids who geek out on philosophy stand a fairly strong chance of demonstrating excellent fit at the University of Chicago.

Both MIT and Cal Tech have several options for those interested in pursuing philosophy as a course of study (be it a few courses or a concentration of some kind). Check it out:

https://www.hss.caltech.edu/academics/undergraduate-studies/humanities-options/philosophy

http://web.mit.edu/philosophy/undergraduate.html

  • Not sure this comment is entirely accurate, but it does further explain the 'less perfect fit' of a STEM devotée with the liberal arts. At UChicago it's not at all unusual to find someone double majoring in STEM and a humanities subject.

Well… when I followed my passion in choosing CS as my field of study it was not at all obvious that a few years down the road it would become my golden ticket. But I still doubt I would have been able to come here on a coveted H-1B visa 20 years ago in a month had I majored in Philosophy in the old country :slight_smile: