UCL or Berkeley

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>Berkeley or UCL</p>

<p>Hi everyone,</p>

<p>Just posting to see if people can advise me on the tricky decision I have to make.</p>

<p>Basically, the universities I have been accepted to are Berkeley, UCLA and NYU in the USA…and University College London, in the UK. (all for Politics although major wise I may change but will almost definitely stay within the social sciences)</p>

<p>I have to admit my knowledge of US universities is perhaps not as great as it should be. In any case, I believe that the best reputation of those universities is Berkeley. (If anyone has differing opinions please let me know)</p>

<p>So if the above is correct my decision lies between Berkeley and University College London.</p>

<p>Now I am unsure of how to gauge which is better academically between the two so any help here will be most appreciated. I have looked at a few tables online which (and I realise that these can not be trusted too much) actually shows University College London above Berkeley in terms of international reputation. I think that the positioning of UCL in London obviously gives advantages of contacts in the city which may be the reason for this. That being said I have seen ‘lists’ which have Berkeley as top 5 in the world for SS
[field[/url</a>]
[url=&lt;a href=“http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/subject_rankings/social_sciences/]QS”&gt;http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2007/subject_rankings/social_sciences/]QS</a> Top Universities: University rankings in the Social Sciences](<a href=“http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ARWU-FIELD2008/SOC2008.htm]field[/url”>http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ARWU-FIELD2008/SOC2008.htm)</p>

<p>A point that may sway my decision slightly is that my other passion in directing and how the university I go to will influence this. I hope that the ethos of university in America will allow me to take some courses in this area but I was unsure whether there will be a big advantage being in California and closer to Hollywood.</p>

<p>Finally, a big difference between the two is the fact as an international student I was unable to get any financial aid at Berkeley and therefore will have to shell out about $45k a year. Does anyone know of any sort of additional scholarships/financial aid available? I have heard that there is a chance in the second year at Berkeley to apply but I am not sure.</p>

<p>So to wrap up the questions I am trying to ask is</p>

<li> Which of the following is the best university in terms of social science reputation (politics/economics) UCLA, Berkeley or NYU</li>
<li> Which has the better reputation and work opportunities: Berkeley or University College London (and what’s the international reputation like…i.e. is Berkeley’s reputation in the UK better than UCL’s in the US?</li>
<li> Any advantages in terms of Directing?</li>
<li> Financial Aid?</li>
</ol>

<p>Thanks everyone for any help- it’s a big decision of my life and I want to make sure it’s the right one! </p>

<p>Most appreciated</p>

2

<p>Go with UCL, it is an excellent University and it will be much cheaper for you.</p>

3

<p>
[quote]
1. Which of the following is the best university in terms of social science reputation (politics/economics) UCLA, Berkeley or NYU
2. Which has the better reputation and work opportunities: Berkeley or University College London (and what’s the international reputation like…i.e. is Berkeley’s reputation in the UK better than UCL’s in the US?
3. Any advantages in terms of Directing?
4. Financial Aid?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>1- Hands down Berkeley in terms of social sciences. But I say that how important the differences are to you may depend on what you want to do afterwards. If you want to go to academe, go to Berkeley for sure, IMO. If you are just picking up a general liberal arts degree and plan to do something else, I am not sure the differences will matter all that much. Especially if you do social sciences, and most especially if you do economics, try to do the math-heavy version. Berkeley offers two tracks in economics; one track that is more math-focused than the other track. The math-focused one is the one that gets one respect. But math at Berkeley is tough and competitive, it being one of the best math schools in the world. Can you handle the math? I don't know if I could have.
2- Frankly, very few people have heard of UCL in the US. People have by and large heard only of Oxbridge. The funny thing is I have read that in the UK UCL has been overtaking Oxford in terms of reputation. There was one of these world rankings that placed several UK universities and places like McGill and HKS&T I think it was above both Stanford and Berkeley; that may be the ranking you were looking at -- it was affiliated with the ranking you quoted. The ranking also put universities like Georgetown significantly below for instance Boston University, a relative placement which just seems bizarre to people from the US. Frankly, this ranking was ridiculous. IMO, Stanford and Berkeley are in some ways the top two universities in the US in terms of the breadth of programs that they have at the highest echelons. Clearly, Harvard is supreme, but not in certain fields like engineering where Stanford and Berkeley shine in addition to shining in all the areas where Harvard does. Berkeley doesn't have the undergrad reputation that Stanford does, but the fact that these powerhouses were ranked where they were, among other things undid the ranking you were talking about and said a lot about the biases of the rankers (esp. in favor of UK schools). Now, worldwide Berkeley has a strong reputation and is famous -- some might even argue moreso outside the US than here -- but the Ivies have typically gotten more attention in the UK.
3. Are you talking about directing plays or directing film or both? It sounds like film. In that case, I'd have to say UCLA or NYU might be a better bet. The Bay Area's film scene seems to revolve around the following: Pixar and George Lucas tech-heavy and animated film-making or documentary film-making. UCLA and NYU both have undergrad film schools of repute. However, if you aren't actually in them, I am not sure what benefits you'll get in terms of being close to them. At one point I wanted to do film school and looked seriously at NYU for undergrad. I'd say focus first on getting educated in order to have something to make films about. You are, however, going to have more opportunities I would think in LA or NYC, though the SF Bay Area is not totally to be sneezed at with the location of Pixar, Lucasfilms, and a variety of independents. In terms of academic appreciation, Berkeley does very well and has the Pacific Film Archive.
4 - Financial Aid: I don't know about this, but if you're an international, I don't think you have good aid opportunities. At least the dollar is low.</p>

<p>One thing you didn't bring up is atmosphere. I think this is important. NYU and UCL are in cities that I find interesting -- very interesting -- but on the other hand I think would have been distracting for me when I was an undergrad. Both are huge urban centers and I imagine the experience of being there for school would be very urban. (More to follow).</p>

4

<p>If you are a UK or EU citizen, it will be much cheaper to attend UCL than UC Berkeley. Having said that, I think a Berkeley degree is far more prestigious internationally. In fact, although UCL or LSE are probably OK, the only British universities I would definitely choose over any top 5 US universities would be Cambridge and Oxford.</p>

5

<p>^ My apologies for diverting the topic a little here, but in response to the post above, I would also add Imperial College London to the list of prestigious UK universities, particularly for engineering.</p>

<p>Anyhow, I think what's best for you is whether you want to go to the US and whether you are willing to pay large amounts of money for you college degree. It also depends on whether you want to work in the US, UK or elsewhere after university.</p>

6

<p>In my humble opinion UCL is better for social sciences... </p>

<p>If you wanted to major in engineering then i would pick Berkeley but since you are not, I believe UCL is the right choice.</p>

7

<p>Hi all, i'm new here :)
I'm surprised to find a thread here, because I'm in the same boat as Shadey, deciding whether UCL or Berkeley is better. I'll have the pay the international rate for both university, it's a big sum so I'm really trying to make a careful decision!</p>

<p>I'm aware that both UCL and Berkeley are good universities, but in your opinion which school is better for the Sciences (Bio/Chem)?</p>

<p>Also, like Shadey I would like to know which Uni has a better national and/or international reputation?</p>

<p>As for Financial Aid & scholarships, I'm aware that Berkeley does offer that but what are the chances an Out-of-state student gets it? Does anyone know?
Does UCL offer scholarships to international students too?</p>

<p>Thanks for your help in advice!! Much appreciated :)</p>

8

<p>qwerty2, i've quite a few friends attending both schools, i'm pretty well-placed to offer some help here</p>

<p>1)Finances - UCL's fees will probably boil down to US 120k for 3 years, Berkeley's US 200k for 4 years, international rate for both, and it is highly unlikely to secure aid</p>

<p>2)College Experience - Undoubtedly Berkeley, I've visited both, and UCL being part of the UOL federal system, is not exactly a very complete school (i.e. it lacks comprehensive facilities, its basically a few buildings in the middle of the city, whereas Berkeley has a 6000-acre campus)</p>

<p>3)Reputation/Job Prospects - Berkeley due to its research and grad schools (and I say that as a UK-bound international student from a former british colony)</p>

<p>4)For sciences its undoubtedly Berkeley, because of grad prospects and funding</p>

9

<p>UCL hands down. Its social sciences reputation is very good internationally and is only behind LSE/Cambridge in the UK.</p>

<p>It will be obviously a very different college experience from Berkeley, as someone above pointed out, but if you like living in a big city, it may well be better for you.</p>

<p>If you have any questions about London/UCL feel free to ask.</p>

10

<p>Btw I say the above studying at a rival college of UCL lol.</p>

11

<p>which would obviously give you an incentive to boost the repute of your rival school since its repute is indirectly linked to your school's =)</p>

<p>i'm neutral qwerty2</p>

12

<p>korektphool, where do you study? I'm guessing Imperial? Although they're all part of the University of London, so that's just a random guess...</p>

13

<p>his KCL, their mascot was castrated by the UCLians lol</p>

<p>and imperial is no longer part of UOL, gd decision there though</p>

14

<p>my 2c to this discussion:</p>

<p>when making a decision, please don't factor in the THES rankings. it's a bull**** ranking. no offense to UCL, a fantastic institution, but i don't think any sane person would rank it 9th in the world. </p>

<p>IF you're using the rankings as a measure for global reputation, berkeley is probably more well-known and better regarded by quite some margin.</p>

15

<p>while i agree that the rankings are kinda warped....but its a fact that many many uninitiated ppl do use the rankings as a gauge</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>i totally agree, any ranking with stanford placed 10 places behind UCL is ***....but again, among the ppl i know, i noticed only US-bound students contest the rankings (if you look around u're bound to see this trend too)</p>

<p>and while i agree Berkeley is ranked higher than UCL in repute, i seriously think that Berkeley as a whole is overrated</p>

16

<p>
[quote]
i totally agree, any ranking with stanford placed 10 places behind UCL is ***

[/quote]
</p>

<p>ah, so you agree that this ranking is complete bull**** based on relative rankings of universities with which you are familiar.</p>

<p>
[quote]
but again, among the ppl i know, i noticed only US-bound students contest the rankings (if you look around u're bound to see this trend too)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So I guess if one is American or US-bound and agrees with you that the rankings are bulls*** one must be wrong because one is American or has a pro-American bias. On the other hand, Europeans that agree with bull**** rankings must be right because they are Europeans. </p>

<p>
[quote]
and while i agree Berkeley is ranked higher than UCL in repute, i seriously think that Berkeley as a whole is overrated

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Based on the nonsense that is your post, I'd say that there is good reason to seriously disregard what you seriously think. Berkeley outperforms just about every university in American across a wider breadth of disciplines in terms of academic output with the possible exception of Stanford, particularly if one considers UCSF, Berkeley's de facto med school. Its not as strong as some of the top schools in terms of undergrad selectivity, but it's still damn strong. And the OP coming from out of state will do just fine dealing with Berkeley's first-rate faculty.</p>

<p>The reason why several Americans think the ranking is out-and-out bs is because of the relative rankings of several colleges within the US, putting aside their comparison to universities outside the States. </p>

<p>For me, it's this fact as well as awareness of certain institutions internationally. And I am sorry, in terms of academic output you just can't tell me that relatively underfunded universities like McGill compete favorably against universities that spend hundreds of millions on research.</p>

<p>But if one argues that it's not academic output that is the measure being applied here, one must argue academic selectivity of undergrads is a focus. And again, by that measure, the rankings are out of kilter.</p>

<p>So what the hell is behind the ranking? The only apparent rhyme or reason to it is geographical bias: it upgrades non-US universities and especially British ones, downgrades US ones particularly those on the West Coast. No wonder non-US-bound Europeans don't dispute it, since they are excused from standards of what is bs and what isn't.</p>

<p>If you want to point to rankings by non-US or European sources, look at the Shanghai rankings:</p>

<p><a href="http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2007/ARWU2007_Top100.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>1 Harvard
2 Stanford
3 Berkeley
4 Cambridge
5 MIT
6 CalTech
7 Columbia
8 Princeton
9 Chicago
10 Oxford</p>

<p>etc.</p>

17

<p>Woo! Cambridge is above Oxford in that ranking!!</p>

<p>IMO it's plain stupid to have a general ranking of universities. They're all bull****. They just end up becoming a popularity contest over which university has most prestige. They're also far too generalized.</p>

<p>It's far more productive to look at universities' reputations in very specific fields.</p>

18

<p>your contradicting yourself Bedhead, first you brush off one ranking(THES) due to huge diff in rankings between colleges that are similar in prestige/quality in the US, and then you put forth another ranking(ARWU) and lend credence to it even though its equally bs (just look at the diff between HYP and Y dropping out of top 10)...besides if this was directed to me, i've already stated clearly that to me the rankings are bs, though its a fact that many "uninitiated" ppl look to them like some "definitive evidence of academic repute and quality" </p>

<p>and you're justified to have your opinion on Berkeley, that its a great school because of the sheer amt of academic output....but to me, my main concern is the college, and in the respect i think most of the prestigious LACs and privates win hands-down</p>

<p>
[quote]
Cambridge is above Oxford in that ranking

[/quote]
</p>

<p>i tot it was always the case</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
your contradicting yourself Bedhead, first you brush off one ranking(THES) due to huge diff in rankings between colleges that are similar in prestige/quality in the US, and then you put forth another ranking(ARWU) and lend credence to it even though its equally bs (just look at the diff between HYP and Y dropping out of top 10)...besides if this was directed to me, i've already stated clearly that to me the rankings are bs, though its a fact that many "uninitiated" ppl look to them like some "definitive evidence of academic repute and quality"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I quoted you; of course my comments were directed at you. I didn't contradict myself in the least. I merely said I couldn't see that the THES rankings had any rhyme or reason. I brought up another set of rankings -- the Shanghai Jiaotong University rankings because at the very least its criteria for ranking are crystal clear and according to its standards the rankings very clearly show that Berkeley and Stanford are tip-top -- and somehow the THES rankings put them very far down the list. It isn't the only ranking to have done so; the NRC rankings of overall breadth and depth of graduate programs had them in the top spots as well, even above Harvard.</p>

<p>What is the usefulness of rankings? Well, that's an entirely different question. The key, I think, as I implied by my post is to look behind the rankings to see what they rate. The Shanghai rankings are at least consistent but probably mostly useless for someone simply choosing college. I think there is a strong argument that LACs provide the best purely educational experience and in that I'd agree. Down the list, I'd put research universities public or private. This is based on anecdotal observations -- for instance a friend who had gone to top research universities (Stanford, MIT) and was getting his PhD at Berkeley and noted the best prepared students were from places like Swarthmore not HYPSBM. I think the distinction between private and public per se may not be the most useful. </p>

<p>I think 100 percent of UK citizens who had no attachment to Oxford would say Cambridge is more highly thought of.</p>

20

<p>^ lol y are u aggressively hammering a guy whos making a case for Berkeley over UCL and whos stating that rankings are bs instead of directing your comments at the dude who said:</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>and regarding Berkeley's reputation in asia, I have my doubts as to that as an asian living IN asia....i tink all this hooha comes from asians living in cal because thats the school most of them go to</p>