UCLA vs UMich vs Washu for Psychology. Help me guys!!

College Search & Selection
1

Hey guys,
I am transferring this Fall and have not decided where to TRANSFER to… I need your advice !!

I narrowed choices down to three from seven.

  1. UCLA (University of California - Los Angeles)
  2. UMich (University of Michigan - Ann Arbor)
  3. Washu (Washington University - St. Louis)

I am majoring in Psychology and planning to minor or double major in either Entrepreneurship, Marketing, Architecture, or Interior Design (or whatever that I am interested in).

I have visited all of them, and I could not find any place that fits me perfectly.
Money does not matter at all since I am an international student, and they are all the same in regards to that.

In regards to ranking, they all vary depending on ranking websites.
UCLA - 8 (World ranking), 23 (US ranking) // PSYCHOLOGY DEPT. 5 (World), 12 (US Undergrad), 2 (US Grad)
UMich - 17 (World ranking), 29 (US ranking) // PSYCHOLOGY DEPT. 7 (World), 4 (US Undergrad), 4 (US Grad)
Washu - 34 (World ranking), 15 (US ranking) // PSYCHOLOGY DEPT. 51-100 (World), 19 (US Undergrad), 14 (US Grad)
+ Smartest College #1

I ve decided not to care about the weather.

However, here are the things that I am concerned THE MOST about each school.

UCLA -

Quarter System (I hate the quarter system. I am a person who needs to spend more time when studying and understanding, and I want to study deeply since I am going to study psychology courses which I am a lot interested in)

But I cannot easily give up on it BECAUSE,
My family, friends, and most of other people in my country only know about UCLA among the list.

UMich -

Same as UCLA except Umich as trimester system (which is better than quarter system), since it is a public school, 200~500 students are in one class.

But I cannot easily give up on it BECAUSE,
it has really good psychology programs, faculties, and research (but I think the two other schools have the same).
But it has more research about social psychology and personality psychology which I am interested in.

Washu -

Since there are fewer professors/ researchers than two other schools, there are less research/opportunities/ etc. but I dont know if it means that it would be more difficult to get the opportunities.

But I cannot easily give up on it BECAUSE,
it is a prestigious PRIVATE school. It means that it is more personal and engaging with professors/fellows, gives more care… and so on.

Please help me decide… it has been a long time… I want to decide…
Thanks!!

2

I’d pick washU for the reasons you mentioned. I visited and was blown away by the friendly people and gorgeous campus. A lot of windy weather though

3

Regarding Michigan, doesn’t a full time student attend two semesters per year? Don’t be fooled by the “trimester” phrase – you will likely attend 2 semesters per year. Here is a CC thread on it:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1849507-how-does-the-trimester-system-work-for-current-um-students.html

Also, the department rankings are for grad school, I assume, not undergrad.

4

What are your plans afterwards? Are you going back to your home country? If so, then it matters what people there think, though if you plan to enter academia or a global prestige industry there, they would know about all the good US schools (though likely UMich and UCLA more).

I’m surprised of people who know of UCLA but not UMich, though. In any case, are your family/friends going to hire you? If so, then it matters what they think. If not, then the quarter system is too big of a strike (and it’s also a big public like UMich and not as rich).

5

@PurpleTitan Thank you for the advice. I am not planning to go back home country. Actually, I dont want to. If I cannot stay here in the United States after getting Ph.D., I would go another country to live, not my country.

Yes, thank you for pointing out that “are your family/friends going to hire you?” thing. Obviously, they are not.
And yes… the quarter system is a very big matter to me… if they did not have the quarter system, I would have already chosen to go there (maybe…:D).

In Asia, UCLA is more well-known than UCB, and even some of IVY league schools such as UPenn, while Umich is well-known in Europe.

Out of curiosity, why did you add “not as rich”? Does it matter when it comes to college academic fields?

Thx!

6

@debate4ever Thankx for the advice! Yes, when I was there, it was bloody windy and cold. However, the campus was, as you said, gorgeous. I also like that they have good food!!!

7

@intparent Thx for the advice. Yes, I know that trimester is similar to semester (but quite different but I still like it). What I meant was I like Umich more than UCLA in regards to the system because Umich has a trimester system not a quarter system.

8

“Not as rich” means not as many resources for students (which is one of the perks of a rich elite private). UMich will still have huge lectures, but it’s one of the richest publics, which means resources that are closer to that of elite privates.

If you’re going for a PhD and you hate the quarter system, then I don’t see why you should keep UCLA on the list. Your friends and family aren’t going to be the ones evaluating your grad school applications. Between WashU and UMich, I think it comes down to fit.

For grad school, I think both would be fine (here’s a ranking of undergrad at RU’s by university officials: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2013/02/28/which-universities-are-ranked-highest-by-college-officials)

UMich is huge. More sink-or-swim. Sends a ton of undergrads to PhD programs (http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/). Of course, it’s massive as well. May be harder to stand out unless you’re at the top. Then again, there’s going to be more variation in quality of the student body.

WashU is like a country club. Medium-sized. They lavishly spend. Almost the entire undergrad student body will have extremely high entering test scores.

Oh, and the UMich trimester system just means that your 2 terms are slightly condensed. Instead of 2 15/16-week semesters, you get 2 13/14-week trimesters. Something like that.

9

All great choices. Psychology is a popular major anywhere, so classes are going to be large regardless. As a Junior, however, I assume you will not have to take many intro-level classes. As such, you should be able to avoid classes with 200-500 students. Still, classes, Psychology classes at Michigan and UCLA will tend to be large–ish (they will be slightly smaller at WUSTL, but still not small).

As intparent and PurpleTitan have remarked, Michigan’s trimester system is in fact a semester system, only slightly shorter (14 weeks instead of 16 weeks). As such, you will have a shorter winter break (2 weeks instead of 3-4 weeks), but a longer summer break (18 weeks instead of 14 weeks).

Have you visited the campuses? They are all very different from each other. You cannot go wrong with any of those three schools, but depending on you personal preferences, one of them may be better than the other two.

10

For context, psychology is my field - I have a PhD in it. Don’t worry about the psychology rankings. First of all, you are going to an undergraduate college - you want to pick a college for the holistic experience and not just the psych department. More importantly, all three of these universities are very well-regarded in psychology and you will get an excellent education with lots of research opportunities at any of them. Think about that when you are comparing reputations of schools. UCLA may be more well-known internationally, but are all of these universities sufficiently well-known internationally to get you what you want (employment and/or admission to a PhD program)? The answer is yes; therefore, comparing prestige/reputation is only relevant insofar that that’s personally important to you to go to the best-known program you were admitted to.

Here’s my perspective on your pros and cons:

  1. Don’t worry about what your friends and family know - there are over 2,000 four-year colleges in the U.S., many of them are very good, but most people won’t have heard of most of them, even the really good ones.

  2. All of these universities have great psychology faculty and research. It’s not very important at the undergrad level that your faculty match up to your interests or that the psychology department is well-known. That’s really consideration for grad school. With that said, I can’t deny the power of having a recommendation from a well-known psychologist in the field in the PhD application process. You don’t need it. But if you can get one, it does look quite good.

I will also say that I have seen first hand the results in attending a department where the emphasis is strongly in area(s) that you’re not interested in; the result is sometimes fewer classes in your interest area. I mention this because Wash U’s department is cognition-heavy, and if you are mostly interested in social/personality, that could come up. A quick glance at Wash U’s recent course offerings seems to reflect that somewhat - the upper-level seminars are heavier in classes in learning, memory, cognition, sensation, and perception and less heavy on anything in social, developmental, or personality. That said, again, I stress that you are going to college as an undergrad - most of your psych major will be about developing breadth and a foundation in your field, and this will really affect only about the 3-5 psychology electives you will be allowed to take. The rest of your coursework will be pretty set.

  1. Yes, Wash U has fewer professors…they also have fewer students. So that doesn’t mean fewer research opportunities. In fact, with smaller departments, you may have increased interaction with the professors and upper-level students in your department. Many large, prestigious psychology departments have a system in which undergrad students are mentored primarily by graduate students and postdoctoral fellows. That’s not necessarily a bad thing - I looooooved mentoring as a grad student, had way more time for it than my well-known PI did, and had more immediately relevant experiences for the undergrads I mentored than my PI did - but it is meaningful when faculty expertise is being factored into your decision.

  2. Private schools don’t confer more engaging experiences with professors - it’s the size of the school that matters, not the source of income.

AND with all that ink spilled about this, my main comment is that from your writing I can’t tell which one you would personally prefer as a student. The tl;dr/bottom line is that you can get what you want, wrt post-graduate opportunities, from any of these three universities. Comparing the academics and even the psych departments is seriously splitting hairs here. So at this point you totally SHOULD be choosing based upon things like weather, location, student body, food, etc.

**

If it were ME making the choice, even knowing everything I know now about the three universities AND knowing that you want to major in psych, I would still pick Wash U in St. Louis. Why?

  1. Smaller, tight-knit campus, especially one that you are transferring into, may mean it’s a bit easier to find your footing more quickly and make a base of friends and activities to get involved in. Larger schools mean more stuff, but also more stuff to navigate. A smaller campus also means smaller classes and more direct engagement with professors; even 300-level psychology seminars at large schools tend to be fairly large sometimes (and if you haven’t started the major yet, your 100- and 200-level classes will be very big at Michigan and UCLA).

  2. Wash U is an elite target school for many kinds of recruiting. You express an interest in business, so this may be relevant should you choose to go directly into work for a couple years before returning for a PhD. (Do note that psychology majors and grad students often study business, behavioral economics, industrial/organizational psychology or something along those lines; business professor positions are easier to get and pay more than psychology ones! Working a few years can be a benefit in this area.) It’s not that UCLA and Michigan aren’t targeted schools for these kinds of things but I feel like it’s just different at Wash U. I noted you have to apply for the business minor at Michigan whereas at Wash U, there are prerequisites but no apparent application (and you can minor in both the business areas you mentioned. I’m not sure architecture and interior design are minors at any of the schools you mentioned. Architecture isn’t really the kind of area you minor in anyway. And a business or economics or math minor would be FAR more useful for a psych major, quite frankly.)

  3. I have heard really, really good things about the overall undergrad experience at Wash U. I know a few alumni and they had overwhelmingly positive things to say, and remembered their Wash U years fondly, even many years after graduating. And I’m not talking about the regular way most people love their alma mater - it was more than that. In fact, I have one friend who I love but my circle used to privately joke about how many times he found a way to bring up “when I was at Wash U” in the middle of a completely unrelated conversation. But there was no snobbery; it was obviously from a really good experience at the university. (And like I said - he wasn’t a super-recent grad; we were all at least 5 years past undergrad by the time this was happening.)

All of these things are more important for an undergrad, I think, than the quality of faculty resources or the 3ish psych electives I mentioned.

11

@Alexandre Thank you ! Yes I ve visited the campuses. Indeed, there are all different. And, I did not quite like them. But I do know that I really did not like LA due to a lot of cars, people, etc. !!

12

@PurpleTitan Thank you! After reading u (and juillet), I decided to go to Washu.

However, I just read your another post (http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19692356#Comment_19692356) and am kinda re-thinking about Washu…

Based on what you posted, do you think I should go to Umich because of the better output?

Oh my god… I really cannot decide between Umich and Washu…

13

@juillet Thank you for the amazing advice based on your experience.

Do you think Washu is a better option when it comes to job recruiting and going for a Ph.D. than Umich??

I am planning (wish) to go to Stanford for a Ph.D., and I was not sure if Washu is a better option due to the output (recruiting/ sending Ph.D.) and difficulties in getting good GPA (which is one of the most important factors in getting Ph.D. programs)

Have you heard how competitive and hard/difficult to get/maintain good GPA at Washu from your colleagues (Washu alumni)?

In regards to interests of the program they offer/focus on, luckily, Washu has some research that I am really interested in! The problem would be the thing whether I can get opportunities from those of little research or not.

I was almost going to call Umich to withdraw my admission but I couldn’t because I was not sure about the above…

14

As @juillet said, go with fit because they both would prepare you well for a PhD.

What my tiers show is that the tip-top of UMich is very stellar and talent there is quite deep. But you could succeed from either WashU or UMich. If I remember correctly, UMich and WashU are similar in terms of the percentage of undergrads getting PhD’s. But UMich is more successful in the professional/pre-professional categories (placement in to elite professional schools and ranking in “American Leaders”, which also takes sheer numbers of illustrious alums in to account). However, UMich forces students in to tracks more. So, for instance, for Wall Street, Ross is better than WashU, but if you didn’t get in to Ross, WashU may offer more access to its business school as a psych major.

15

@PurpleTitan Thank you! Now, the new problem is that there is fewer courses selection at Washu…
I was planning to minor in (or at least take some other classes rather than only taking psychology ones) sociology (especially criminology/law), business (or entrepreneur), or Architecture design (I am here in the United States for learning/ developing myself… I want to experience/ learn as much as I can when I am still young!!!).
However, it seems that Washu does not have many, or most of, courses that I am interested in among those subjects while Umich has everything…

This is so hard… Yeah… I know I am too wishy-washy. :frowning: :slight_smile:

16

Try to find out if UMich has restrictions (for non-majors) on those courses you want to take and how many you can fit in and still finish your psych major on time. There may not be many, but find out about the Ross and architecture courses. Architecture courses, especially, may require pre-reqs. Protecting your GPA may also be important for grad school. I expect classes in both those schools to be harder than those in CC.

17

@PurpleTitan THank you so much for your advice. Btw, what do you mean by “finish ur psych major on time”?
Is there any specific time which I need to finish everything by? I do not mind if I stay there 3 years after transferring as long as I can learn something more and gain some deeper insights into myself.

18

You’d have to fit all the classes required for your major in.

And an extra year means spending a good deal more money than required. Of course, I don’t know your family’s financial situtation. Maybe they don’t care.

19

http://michiganross.umich.edu/programs/non-business-undergraduate-electives

https://www.lsa.umich.edu/students/academicsrequirements/lsadegreesrequirements/areadistributionrequirement/coursesinnonlsaunitsofferingcourseswithcreativeexpression_ci

20

Nope - no better, no worse. I know a ton of Michigan graduates across many sectors. I know fewer Wash U graduates just because they’re smaller, but I do know a couple, and they are successful in their fields/careers as well. You’ll be absolutely fine and can do whatever you want coming from either, including going to Stanford for a PhD.

As a side note, don’t worry so much about output with respect to sending to a PhD. It’s not that that’s not a concern, but hardcore numerical comparisons can be misleading since there are so many other factors that influence output. Probably the number one factor is student desire to actually get a PhD. It may be, for example, that students at a specific school just are less likely to even want a PhD at all. But that doesn’t mean that if you go to that specific school you have a lowered chance of getting into a PhD program if you try.

Getting research experience is a lot easier than most people anticipate, if you plan for it. Few professors turn down free assistance from eager undergraduates. If you do well in your classes, are a generally amiable and easy-to-train student, and you have a passion for psychological science, you should find opportunities pretty easily.