@Gator88NE : It was a rhetorical question. It was a question to myself to exemplify the thought process…Sorry for the misunderstanding.
The fact-book pages of both schools have the grade distributions. UF’s average grade (3.38) is better than UCF (3.01).
A different thought. If you are hesitant about going to med school, then you may want to consider a different major. There are not a lot of career opportunities with a biology degree. I would consider leaning more “engineering” than pure science.
Fellow NMF checking in. I’ll be attending a combined medical program next fall, and I’ll just drop some advice.
Some things about the BMS really worry me, which is why I didn’t apply.
First, if it is a supposed “combined” program, why do they require 2 letters of recommendation and an interview before matriculation? In my mind, the fact that you could be left in the dust after meeting the high GPA and MCAT req. really scares me.
Second, why are the requirements so high? A 512 MCAT is 87% percentile and a 3.75+ GPA is competitive for any traditional medical school applicant. It seems like these requirements just incentivize people to apply out. Ask for the number of people who stay in the program from start to finish.
Lastly, it seems like this program requires the exact same thing from its members as does the traditional medical path. High MCAT, high GPA, service requirements, clinical experience, interviews, letters of rec. etc.
In my mind, this is simply too restrictive and completely goes against the whole point of doing a combined program, which is to reduce stress and have the time/opportunity to pursue EC’s that you like the most
Thanks @GreenPoison for the advice. I think interview/LOR part isn’t emphasized. Once you have MCAT and GPA, it is largely automatic. I agree the requirements are high.
However, my choice is not between UCF BMS and another combined program. It is between UF and UCF. UF does not offer anything resembling a combined medical degree.
What would you choose between UF Honors and UCF BMS + Burnett Honors?
For UF Honors how much money did you get?
UF is pretty well known as a pre-med powerhouse, and I heard classes there can be pretty tough. However, if you’re not 99.99% certain about medicine I would definitely advise you to choose UF, as job opportunities for other fields will be much better there.
Even though UCF’s medical school may not be highly ranked, they always have good match lists, so I would recommend this if you are committed to medicine and are certain that you’ll get past the prereqs.
Ask for the attrition rate of people who don’t get into UCF School of Medicine through BMS. If it’s 20% or more, don’t go, as that’s simply too much risk
@xxyyzz00, I like your use of the decision-tree process and the application of numbers to make a decision! However, as you know, the outcome of the decision tree is dependent upon the accuracy of your numbers. I question the accuracy of your estimate for a 40% chance of becoming a doctor if you attend UF and 80% at UCF. I’ll bet the chance off success for a NMF like yourself is much higher than what may be a success factor for all students at UF. I am confident that you will also get a top score on the MCAT no matter where you go to school, which will get you into a good medical school. @greenpoison makes an excellent point that UCF has not lowered the bar much for you to get into their medical school, even if it seems that way. (I agree with @greenpoison that something like UF’s medical honors program is far better in that you escape the stress and limitations from having to take the MCAT.) Even though I think that UCF is an amazing school for what they have been able to do with what they have, UF is the better school for you.
Although I have no experience with Med School admissions, I would go to the best school you can go to. The dollars aren’t that different (in the long run). UF is a better school by many metrics. It is the state flagship and home to the many of the best students in the state (who chose to stay in state). I wouldn’t worry about competition and grades. That will always be the case in everything you do.
Look at it this way, if you’re concerned about getting in to med school based on MCAT and GPA, why do you think you would be able to stay in med school? You’ve already proven your scholastic ability. No reason to think that success will stop. Quite frankly, if undergrad premed knocks you out, this wasn’t your gig because med school would kill you.
Be confident. Do what you always do. Go to UF. Yrs later you’ll kick yourself if you don’t.
@GreenPoison , I would agree with you that if the attrition rate is above 20%, the risk is too much. Not worth it. Since the program is relatively young, they may not have a good data. Still worth investigating.
To answer your question, both schools are free ride.
I don’t think anybody can be 99.99% sure for any career. You never what tomorrow will bring.
I should have applied to various combined BSMD programs, but didn’t even know they existed till I stumbled upon UCF BMS. It is too late for that now.
UCF’s reputation seems to be harmed by the huge number of transfer students. I don;t know why they take so many transfer students (~2/3 of the student body). Somehow they’ve done a good good with the med school. Their match list seems to be on par UF and UM.
Thanks for your comments/ideas.
@oldandwise : Those numbers are not meant to be actual numbers. I was trying to get numbers so that they produce the same overall value.
I believe that by going to UCF, my chance of becoming a doctor would be higher. But by how much, and would that be worth dropping other opportunities? That is the questions. At this point, I don’t know.
I hear that at a typical public school, only one fourth of the pre-meds actually survive to the senior year, and out of those only 42 percent matriculate to med schools. Overall only ~10-15% make it. Considering this abysmal statistics, BMS guarantee becomes quite valuable.
I agree that Junior Honors @UF is much much better, but getting into the program is too difficult and uncertain.
You said that you went to Harvard from Tennessee. I was wondering if it was med school. If you are also a doctor. @SteyrFWB and you argue completely opposite viewpoints, which further shows that this decision is really tough.
As always, greatly appreciated your inputs.
Alas, I went to the business school — probably not smart enough to be a doctor! You are doing well to use numbers to help you with your analysis, but you are inappropriately using averages that don’t apply to you. Being a NMF, you are well above the typical student at a public college. If it were available, a more appropriate statistic would be what % of NMF that start out wanting to be doctors as freshman actually enroll in med school. You can be sure that it’s a much higher number. Further, while it’s true that twice as many people apply to med school each year as there are openings, your score on NMF puts you in the top 1% of students who took the PSAT. Assuming that being in the top 1% of driven students who took the PSAT also puts you in the top 1% of the 2.2 million college freshmen, you will be in the top 22,000 college applicants this year. Just by coincidence, that’s about the number of students who enroll in medical school each year. But a large number of those top freshmen will chose other fields of study than medicine, which means that you will be near the front of the line for those who are academically qualified to get into medical school. Accordingly, I would argue that your chances of getting into medical school in 4 years are very high whether you go to either UF or UCF. So, going back to your decision, I see that your aversion of risk is clouding your decision making. While UCF is a fine school, UF is far better. If you want to base your decision on numbers, of the total number of NMF that go to either UF and UCF, do you know what % go to UF?
I’ve reviewed your texts and the very thoughtful responses of others. (And congrats, by the way!) In ruminating through this, you may want to consider the other important aspects going into the decision. Do you like the campus? Have you spoken with some of the students in the UCF BHC and the U of F HP? Do you like the look and feel of the school? Could you see yourself thriving in this environment? Etc.
Prestige and rankings are nice, but they can’t buy contentment or motivation. My son (a freshman in the UCF Burnett Honors College, Mechanical/Aerospace Engineering) was accepted to both U of F and UCF. He liked both places, but ultimately decided on UCF over U of F – despite the rankings/prestige/etc. of U of F – because he just felt that UCF was the right fit for him. So far, this has borne out (4.0 GPA in Fall, has made lots of friends, loves the BHC, loves the campus). He’s just plain excited to be at UCF, which is a huge part of his motivation and effort at school. And he’ll have multiple options after school – Lockheed hires more UCF grads than any other school, including U of F. And FWIW – if it’s all about rankings and prestige, he was accepted to and would have enrolled at Texas A&M for engineering.
I love both schools. My 11-grade daughter just looked at U of F, UCF, and USF over spring break. She’s interested in pursuing physical therapy but is also a serious dancer, so she may combine both in her course of study. Her first choice is U of F, and I’d be real excited if she goes there. But USF and UCF are good choices, too.
A final word on reputation: it goes only so far. I graduated from the University of Virginia (Gov’t & Foreign Affairs Honors Program) and UVa Law School. That got me in the door at a great law firm, but it’s all about effort from there. Four or five years out, most law firms won’t care near as much about where you went to law school, as much as how you’ve developed as an attorney.
Hope this helps. All the best with your decision. Two terrific schools!
@xxyyzz00
Answering my own question to you above about NMF attendance at UF and UCF, last year 202 NM Scholars enrolled at UF and 89 started at UCF. Therefore, almost 70% of the total NMF attending either school chose UF.
Nevertheless, I will give credit to UCF for getting so many NM Scholars compared to the other major colleges in Florida. Also last year, 25 went to FSU, 22 to UM, and 15 to USF. So despite being the lowest ranked school of the group, UCF easily outdistanced all the other schools in the enrollment of NM Scholars except for UF. It’s obvious that the UCF administration does an excellent job of selling themselves. But Uf still rules supreme.
Therefore, if you want to use numbers to help you make your decision, it is significant that 70% of NMF given a choice between the two schools chose UF.
Please, NMS=medical acceptance? You can not be serious !
I would bet you handsomely that you will be hard pressed to find more than 10% of med school class who were NMS in high school. Most NMS designation fall off the wade side by then.
AAMC has tons of data on where first year medical school come from, Private vs public, by race, white vs Asian vs blacks vs Hispanics.
Once you read through, you will scratch your head. Students do come from all over. They all can sing, they all can dance. And they are getting older.
If you are going into Wall Street business or high power law/ political arena, I can see the advantage of a relatively short term, highly rank school education.
But medicine is such a protracted long, long process, what really count is residency education. And that is far, far removed from where you start in college. Cream will rise to the top, but not at that initial chafing process.
https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/86042/factstablea2.html
notice where Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, MIT are on that list.
You add up all the student on that list, from all schools, that is not even 1/2 of the total student number, that means when you add up ALL schools, students are truly from ALL OVER.
If they come from all ALL OVER, do they really care “your college ranked higher than mine college” when they are sitting in hospital cafeteria shooting the breeze?
@SteyrFWB
I will be so bold to state that being a NMF is a good harbinger for acceptance to medical school, just as a top SAT score would be. I lack any information to prove it, but I would bet that students who do well on standardized tests do very well on the MCAT, which is one of the key factors for getting into medical school.
I’m not sure what conclusions you draw from the list that you attached, since it is only the list of where applicants come from. It fails to provide any data about who got into medical school. It doesn’t tell me how qualified the applicants were.
If you believe that NMF fade into the background, do you believe the same about Harvard undergrads? Perhaps you are aware that 13% of the admitted class to Harvard last year received a scholarship from National Merit Scholarship Corporation, which is the highest honor. We don’t know how many total Harvard students were NMF because Harvard doesn’t sponsor scholarships like UF and UCF do. But you can be sure that there were more NMF at Harvard who didn’t get a scholarship. So, do all those Harvard students just fade away in the same manner that you believe NMF designation that they carry does?
If you are quite sure that the college a student attends doesn’t matter, you are going to turn the college world upside down. There is a whole college industry built on making parents and children believe that they have to go to the highest ranked school that they can get into.
I happen to believe that a great education can be achieved at any college, but I also believe that the screening process that a student goes through to get into a given college has value. It I like a stamp of approval. It’s the Good Housekeeping seal. Perhaps this screening – this seal of approval – is the greatest value that a Harvard education provides. One of their students passed through their gates, even if they didn’t learn much. (You’ll never see their transcripts.)
If you will look at the biographies of the medical-school MDs on the UF website, you will almost always see listed the medical school that they attended. Sometimes, you will even see the undergrad college, usually if it is a prestigious one.
So, the bottom line, @xxyyzz00, if you are unclear that the name of your undergrad or your medical school matter, flip though the names of the doctors at UF and UCF and see if the name of your college sticks with you. Also, consider if you think you attribute any value to the different colleges listed.
I taught at Harvard Medical School. I did pay attention to where my colleagues come from.
When I was young, I did think like an ivory tower worshipper. I was a NMS when Carter as the president. NMS recognition was perhaps bigger back then.
But over the years, after NMS to UF and onward to other things, after bigger and better places, I came to have a very different view about where students should/could start.
Many bloggers here are the bottom line type of guys, so I will give my Henry Fonda-esq on Golden Pond, rough, bottom line percussion.
Let’s not beat around the bushes. We are all overhyped parents, otherwise we won’t be here cursing each other’s guts.
We are all here for our own kids; we just vaguely guised as saintly elderly state man for other kids.
Most of our kids are capable, and will end up where OUR own education values gird them.
My daughter goes to UCF BMS as a NMS. She will go on to better things. Your kid will go to UF and go on to better things. Someone else’s kid will go on to tier-1 school, and go on to better things.
We all have a big stake in this education-work game. After viewing from other vintage points, I will give an Henry Fonda-esq percussion. NMS does not mean squat, it is that four letter word, W-O-R-K.
What is in your wallet?
Have you actually visited both the UF and the UCF campus? Have you spent hours discovering the campuses…the library, the student union, the green spaces, the dorm areas, the bookstore, the dining halls, the just off campus establishments, etc? I ask this because my kids just got a feeling/instinct/intuition each time we visited a college campus. You really do get a vibe, one way or the other, just by spending several hours walking around on campus.
I say go where YOU feel the most comfortable. Go where YOU think YOU will fit in best. Stop worrying so much about the “what ifs” so far in the future…none of us are guaranteed tomorrow…life is short…you need to be HAPPY and COMFORTABLE where you choose to go to school. If you want something badly enough, it will all work out, no matter where you go to school.
“PRESS ON! Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent." Calvin Coolidge
The Med school algorithm that cuts applicants doesn’t even include the colleges’name or your major. If you make the cut, then it’s all about what you did - hence what resources existed and your ability to take advantage of them. Burnett has a lot of resources specifically for its students, UF has a lot of resources overall. Smaller classes are a huge advantage as typically honors students have better grades in them than in non honors and enjoy them more, plus they guarantee personalized LORs. But outside of honors classes, regular UF classes will be more challenging than regular UCF classes. And of course, look at 3/4th year classes: are they smaller? Which college offers advanced elective classes you’d be interested in taking There are ways to make yourself known to a professor in a huge clas but you have to try consistently and click with the professor (if the professor teaches a lab or a discussion section, use your priority registration for that).
Look carefully into the benefits of honors at both universities, at re first year program.
Which campus do you like best?
Will you be content having peers in Burnett only? Will you be content being one in thousands at UF?
In short, there are pros and cons to both.
Being NMF is correlated with sociology economic status. In that, it is a good predictor of med school acceptance (being upper middle or upper class helps, having parents who are physicians helps even more). A good test taker will likely remain a good test taker but the (redesigned) MCAT is a totally different beast from the act or sat. Don’t assume anything.
@SteyrFWB - For some reason, you keep insulting National Merit Scholars. For the NMS I know, the honor was earned through old-fashioned hard work – yes, W-O-R-K!
It is not attained from just a one day test; that is only the first step. More testing has to be completed and a certain score must be achieved, transcripts are submitted, essays written, letters of recommendations, etc. The process takes over a year to complete.
Most NMS kids started taking advanced classes at the end of elementary school or in middle school and take rigorous high school schedules. They often participate in band, sports, or other school activities and some have leadership roles.
These kids have worked hard their entire academic life, and achieving National Merit status is an H-O-N-O-R!
OP – My own NMS has struggled with the college decision having many great opportunities presented. All of the campus visits were great and did not sway my student one way or another. I think the deciding factor was selecting a program that offered the most opportunities overall in case of a change of major. I wish you well. You WILL succeed in either program, and you have already achieved much. Be proud of your accomplishments and have faith in your abilities – you’ve already proven yourself.
@SteyrFWB -
You and I are of similar vintage, and we’ve perhaps achieved or surpassed some of the things that we thought were ever so important in our youth. Your teaching at HMS is probably the pinnacle of the medical profession. But now, like the writer of Ecclesiastes, we might find that many of our dreams were hollow. While we’ve learned a lot about what is real in life, the basic human motivations of the next generation probably haven’t changed from what we felt as youths. Our kids are still conscious of their social status and creating peer envy just like we were, and they feel a need to go out and prove themselves. But, because you have achieved great things, perhaps you no longer concern yourself with achievements of what others think about you. I admire that. Nevertheless, on your way up in your career, I am confident that you were careful to manage your professional qualifications and reputation. Harvard is snobby like that. It wouldn’t surprise me that you would have felt the need to pick a more prestigious school like UF over UCF back in your youth.
I agree with those that say each school offers its benefits for a premed student. From what I hear, UCF has a better honors program, and it certainly has better dorms. UF’s strengths are its stronger brand name, a more selective student body, a very large pre-med population, an on-campus hospital, a much higher ranked medical school, a very large research program geared to provide LORs, a much lower student : professor ratio, greater investment from the state due to “preeminence” goals, and great sports and social activities.