UF Honors Program vs UCF Burnett Honors College and Medical Scholar. Please help!!!

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Florida
61

During the application and acceptance phases of colleges, we all probably overlook some of the details that separate one college program from another. My son knows he was accepted into UF Fresgman Honors Program, but I am certain that he has put off reading the details until another day. He viewed it as little more than another honor, not as a program that he was particularly pursuing. But the details of the UF and UCF programs tell the differences in the approach that the two schools take for their programs.

My generalizations about the differences between the UF and UCF honor programs are accurate. UCF describes its program as an intimate liberal arts education through its small classes, something one only achieves by taking the honors classes as a separate and superior track from the non-honors students at UCF. The honors program at UCF is called a “college”, not a program, and there is a required number of the honors classes that a student must take to fulfill the honors graduation requirement. (One can take a lot more classes than the minimum, but to graduate from the “college”, it’s assumed one actually took some of the classes.) The course-offering selection is broad.

On the other hand, UF’s honor program is just a “program” despite the nameplate outside of Hume Hall. The number of honors classes is relatively small, and most of them would not appeal to an engineer-type like me. Poetry writing! Further, there is no requirement to take any honors classes to graduate with the honors distinction, although taking honors classes does help fulfill the graduation requirements. Despite the often-touted benefit of smaller classes, nowhere in the UF honors overview is smaller-class size advertised. In other words, the UF program is not a promise of an alternate track where extra resources are put into smaller classes to separate out honors students from non-honors students. Instead, it is a promise to help motivated students achieve a higher level of learning through supplemental avenues.

I’ve been told that the reason that colleges like Berkeley and UVA don’t separate out their honor students into a separate track is that they view all their students as honor students, just some are a little more honors than others. I’ve also heard that UF has the same philosophy, which was an argument for why the admission committee didn’t select honors members. It was open to anyone who wanted to apply. (However, they offered admission to some this year, but I’ve read that the selection is going back to the honors program for selection next year.)

At the risk of offending the prolific writers on this post who usually write on the UCF section (because their kids are at UCF or the writers have said they are going to go to UCF), UCF’s plan fits the pattern that is found at state-flagship schools like Alabama and South Carolina. One can read the history of honors program to understand that these colleges put extra resources into their honors programs - like UCF, they both have honors “colleges” - in an attempt to entice their states’ top students away from attending higher-ranked colleges in other states. Because the lower academic credentials of the other students at the school were a concern, they set up a largely separate track for their honors students so that they could promise an affordable, elite education.

I agree fully that the benefits one achieves from either honors program is up to the student, and that a motivated student can get exactly the same education at either school. But I will continue to argue that a UF diploma has a higher market value than a degree from UCF, and I will also make the argument that an honors diploma from UF has a higher market value than an honors diploma from UCF. Most people will never look at the differences in the two schools honors programs. The bottom line is that UF is the higher ranked school, and its graduates benefit from the value of the higher standing.

62

Some comments regarding the posts by @oldandwise .

  1. I agree that "a UF diploma has a higher market value than a degree from UCF"
  2. I agree that "an honors diploma from UF has a higher market value than an honors diploma from UCF. Most people will never look at the differences in the two schools honors programs."
  3. One may even argue that a REGULAR diploma from UF has a higher market value than an honors diploma from UCF.
  4. What does any of 1-2-3 have to do with me becoming a doctor? These are all tangential issues. At which school is my chance of becoming a doctor higher, and by how much? I am positive that my chance of becoming a doctor is much higher at UCF. I am in the process of figuring out "by how much" part and would "this much" worth the downside risk in the even of a possible major change?
  5. UF is not Harvard or Stanford or Berkeley. Those types of schools claim that "all their students are so good that they don't feel the need for an honors college and/or their resources are adequate enough for all". I can buy this if it comes from UC Berkeley, but not from UF. Not even from UVA. UF is kidding itself on this.
  6. Whatever the reasons are, and I couldn't care less, UCF Honors College is much better than UF Honors Program, and provide better experiences and resources for its students. For med schools, experiences seem to count more than the prestige of the school.
  7. UCF has tons of transfer students and their overall academic quality as measured by standardized test are generally quite poor. In fact, I came to believe that anybody can attend UCF through community college route regardless of how poor they are.
  8. I agree that "During the application and acceptance phases of colleges, we all probably overlook some of the details that separate one college program from another." When I was following Benacquisto legislation process in the Florida senate, I wrote on CC that "If it passes, we don't need to consider any other school. UF would automatically be the to-go school for all" type statements. So, I don't understand why you wrote "At the risk of offending the prolific writers on this post who usually write on the UCF section (because their kids are at UCF or the writers have said they are going to go to UCF)". I didn't understand the reasoning behind it. In any case, although I was initially biased towards UF based on its ranking, after careful investigation of both opportunities, I came closer to UCF. That is, the value of what UCF offers becomes much more apparent only after an in-depth research. Only then, UCF becomes competitive with UF, or even better, not necessarily in general, but for a particular purpose that I am pursuing.
  9. Of course, it is subjective but UCF seems to have a better vision. Especially, UCF COM seems to have a fantastic vision. I can see some of it is just marketing, but they delivered phenomenal results, so no reason not to believe. Furthermore, Orlando is a growing city, and over time, UCF will surpass other regional schools, and rival UF if they can keep up with their act. The main problem I see is the percentage of transfer students. I assume they take so many transfers because of financial support from the state, and they use money for other purposes. If that's not the case, I cannot see why UCF is shooting itself in the foot.

As always, thanks @oldandwise and @SteyrFWB . Your posts are helping several NMSs to view matters from different angles.

63

@xxyyzz00,
First, I agree with you that UCF is a dynamic school. I have advised many kids to add it to their list of colleges that they consider. The campus is new and bold, and I believe that it will soon pass USF in the rankings and in the buzz among Florida’s high school seniors.

With that said, I’m going to go back to giving you numbers to help you in your analysis if you haven’t already reached a decision on your school selection despite what you have written elsewhere. The part of your analysis above that I disagree with the most is the part where going to UCF with the benefits of their honors programs gives you a “much higher” chance of becoming a doctor. Your promise of admittance to UCF COM is conditional, and it’s conditioned on achievements that put you solidly in the body of students that are likely to be accepted into medical school. So, if you are likely to get accepted to medical school anyway, what is the value of the promise from UCF? How is it that the conditional approval gives you a “much higher” chance than you would have by going to UF?

Let’s look at the data. This is from Princeton Review: “The average MCAT score for students admitted to an MD program in the United States in 2016–2017 is between 508 and 509, with an average GPA of 3.65-3.75 (Source: AAMC).” Your conditional approval from UCF COM requires you to get a 512 and a 3.75, which is well above the average of the students who were admitted to medical school. An MCAT score of 512 puts you in the top 11,000 of the students who annually take the MCAT. And with 22,000 medical school openings, you’d be in the top half of the applicants.

You are suffering from being risk averse. Your fear of failing to get accepted to any medical school has you making decisions that don’t follow your decision-tree analysis using percentages for likely outcomes. Knowing that you are a NMF and that you have high enough scores on the SAT to get into UCF’s medical honors, I am confident that you have the smarts and the drive to earn the credentials that are required to get into a medical school ranked at least as high as UCF’s COM requires. Therefore, if we were to eliminate our analysis that chance that you might decide that you don’t really want to be a doctor for reasons other than grades or test score, and if we assume that you were to achieve the scores required for admittance to UCF’s COM, I’d put the chance that you get accepted to at least one medical school at close to 100%.

I also disagree with your conclusion that UCF has a better honors program. If you judge it for offering a separate track for its members, yes, UCF has a better “college within a college” type of honors program. But UF has a more select study body and has been able to attract a lot more top students than UCF without the expense of creating a more developed separate track. (I’d be interested to know how many students at each school take the honors sections of some of the premed requirements. If I were there, I would pick the class in the track that got me the easier “A”, not the one that forced me to write more or learn topics not on the MCAT.)

Other measures of an honors plan would include the advising. I know that UF prides itself on the advisors it offers to its members, but UCF does too. Let’s say that they each have good advising.

But the area where UF stands head and shoulders above UCF is the research opportunities. The facts are that UF has a much bigger research budget, and they promote it heavily to their students. (After all, the students are needed to provide a lot of free help in doing the research.) Along with my son’s admittance to the honors program was the admittance to the Undergraduate Research Scholars Program, which really has attracted his interest. At Florida Days, he wanted to go to the section on the research options. He has talked about getting into research on some of the medical advances that are hot today. As a parent, it felt good to see the spark of interest.

I appreciate that you are doing your best to gather data to help you make your decision. If you want to hold on to your risk aversion, stick with UCF. If you want to go to the higher ranked school, whose ranking might help you get into a better medical school than UCF, go to UF. More NMFs choose UF than UCF, but you have to make the choice that is right for you. I am confident that you will do well regardless of your choice.

64

It’s not about risk in my opinion. It’s about the value placed on the actual undergraduate experience. Both experiences will be different.
The value of a degree depends on what one does while in college so the setting that is most likely to help students perform their best is the best setting for that student.

65

There must be some reason that honors sections fill up so fast at ucf.
Being in Burnett affords students the opportunity to register for classes up to 3 semesters in advance. This continues for the entirety of UG and can have an enormous effect on graduating on time. I would think most in Burnett are not looking for the easy “a”, evidenced by the assumption that most probably took AP, DE and IB in highschool (Not the easy “a” route.) These students should be used to writing and critical thinking, something that could only help them in later studies and life.

66

@oldandwise

Yes!! I agree with everything in your post above. I actually just looked online at the UCF program myself to see the requirements and am, to be quite frank, not impressed with the program. I just don’t see the benefit.

No benefit in commiting yourself to a program that:

  1. Has no timeline benefit, its still 4 years undergrad + 4 years of medical school. So its not like one of those 7 year BS/MD programs that saves you a year. And the website clearly says you forfeit your seat if you graduate undergrad early.
  2. Doesn't exempt you from taking traditional premed requisites (chem, bio, orgo, physics) in lieu of pursuing other coursework that you might be passionate about. The early admit program at Mount Sinai is an example of a program that utilizes such exemptions to encourage flexibility and variability in a premedical student's undergraduate studies.
  3. Requires a 3.75 GPA and 512 MCAT to stay in the program. Hell, it requires that you not only take the MCAT (many combined BS/MD programs don't require the MCAT once you are accepted) but perform at the 85th percentile. These are competitive scores!! You can get into medical school on your own if you make them, potentially get into a better MD school than UCF. And on the flip side, what if you don't meet these cuts? You potentially lose your spot at UCF Med and then you end up in the same premed pool as everyone else at UCF undergrad.

I honestly believe this program is just a way for UCF Med to try to commit the best and brightest to their medical school as early as possible. While this might be a great thing for UCF Med, who knows if its the best thing for an 18 year old who has stars in their eyes about having a (conditionally) reserved spot at an MD program?

I totally agree with the assessment that the UCF Burnett Medical Program is for the risk averse. The program requires that you do the same things you would otherwise be doing if you were succeeding as a premedical student at UCF, UF, or elsewhere. I don’t see the benefit and I think you should only be considering it if at this early stage in your life you:

  1. Know you seriously and truly want to become a doctor
  2. Need to be in Orlando for your education for the next 8 years

Again, I stand by my advise to go to the best you can and do the best you can and keep all doors open. Don’t sell yourself short! You are smart enough to be a NMS and get into all these undergrads, you have what it takes to make it on your own. Believe in yourself, don’t believe in the naysayers, don’t take **** from anyone, and kick ass.

67

Most students who choose honors colleges want the close knit community of scholars with small interactive classes. They want the ability to choose their classes and avoid online or lecture classes unless they find those more convenient. Honirs students end to get their best grades in honors classes because those allow them to show their strengths (most top/honors students use arborescent thinking, which isn’t strengthened in regular classes because most people don’t function like that. They often get bored in lectures and would rather read ahead then discuss the material, test hypotheses, etc.)
For them, college isn’t just a means to an end, but an opportunity for growth.
They want acess to professors who will become mentors. They’re interested in research and know coming from the honors college gets them a foot in the door at most labs on campus.
So, OP shouldn’t choose because of the UCF medical program (which is only an assurance - students can apply elsewhere - and the stats the program requires pretty much mean students will have choices because these stats are very high). But op should think whether they want the honors college experience or not.
(Note that if it were regular UCF V. UF I wouldn’t hesitate: UCF has grown too fast and isn’t user friendly. UF as the flagship gets he best state financing and the state’s goal of climbing the rankings to reach UCSD or UNC-CH means a lot of attention is lavished on it.
However a lot of this attention focused on research and not necessarily undergraduate experience and in the comparison UCF Honors is a different kettle of fish v. UCF regular. The administration’s paid a lot of attention to their honors college in order to offer a strong undergraduate experience, especially for STEM majors – and they have largely succeeded.
Also, UCF has passed USF for a while now, it’s trying to compete with FSU.)
Ultimately it’s really all about the best environment to reach your goals.

68

@xxyyzz00, I really have to commend your insights. You are the only true high schooler in this blog.

Everyone here, including me, is trying to catch your lapel, shouting at you, "Look at me, I am the king of kings, I have gone to Mount Sinai from hog town " .

If my old professor were here, he would probably say something like, “For those who understand, no further explanation is needed; for those who don’t understand, no explanation is sufficient.”

It’s time to move on, make some friends and influence people.

You are far insightful than many.

Best wishes to you.

p.s.

MCAT 512 is required to be proficient at next stage. It is not high. There are at least, oh 40 schools that have average class MCAT high than 515. Let me see if I can recount region by region. BU, Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, Columbia, Hofstra, Cornell, Mt. Sinai, NYU, Einstein, UPenn, Hopkins, Duke, UVa, Emory, USF, Vanderbilt, Case, Rochester, Cincinnati, Pitts, Ohio State, Michigan, Western Michigan, Northwestern, Chicago, Wash U, Mayo, Tex Southwestern, Baylor, UCSD, UCLA, UCI, UCSF, USC, Stanford. That is FOURTY, each with legions of students.

There are another oh, 30-40 next to UF; UWash, Oregon, Iowa, N.C. Chapel Hill, UTAustin, StonyBrook, etc, etc, etc.

There is a plethora of good schools, of course, that including UF.

Don’t have a superiority complex, don’t have an inferiority complex.

“You talking to me? You want to kiss my ass?”

Again, very best wishes to you.

69

@SteyrFWB
You are a class act!

70

You are, too. :slight_smile:

As George Patton would say,

“From one SOB to another SOB, I will drink to that!”

71

@SteyrFWB Update on my son. He just committed to UF and the Honors program today. Even though he was offered a financial grant at U Mich, after careful review…he liked the all the perks at Florida in the end. It is hard to compete with all the scholarship money, honors program and rapidly growing reputation of UF. His other strong consideration was CWRU that offered him a substantial amount of merit money. BTW, he was also accepted to UCF’s Burnett Honors College, but in all honesty never really considered this very seriously. Please note he is not Pre-med (unlike his Gator dad) at this point. UF will always be Florida’s flagship University…

72

Please go with UF… the UCF name holds no weight outside of Florida.
Like others have said, if you are smart enough to get into a BSMD program, you’ll have no trouble getting into medical school (which you aren’t even sure you want to do).
Even if you were 100% set on being a doctor, I’d still advise you to go to UF. The matriculation requirements for UCF are ridiculous. With scores like that, you’d get into medical school anyways.

73

We are all parents talking here. So let me talk from a parent’s perspective.

My daughter is finishing her third year BMS. This morning at 1:00am, track her on my FindMyFriends app, she was still in the deep jungle of Universal Studio. Mind you, we are approaching Kamikaze finalsl week for college.

She is the type of girl that goes, “Dad, turn on the TV. I am on ESPN, I am on the second row on the left!”

She got her 3.75, she got her 512.

She can play. I am not worried. Seeing 7 UCF people matched into dermatology this year, she is embolden to become one.

More power to her. I am not worried.

Now, had she gone to UF, the flagship of Florida. I would be quite worried at this point.

UF is one of the biggest producer of premeds. A big load of premeds. Thousands upon thousands call themselves premeds.

But the over all acceptance is still national average, 45%.

Not higher, not lower, for this flagship. 45%.

One really have to look at the flag of that flagship, wondering if it is prestigious enough.

In baseball term, that is call, “A long run, for a short slide”.

A long run for a dangerously short slide.

Too high of a risk for some umpire yelling at HER face, “You are OUT !”

You might call me a sissy, or worse.

But as a parent, I am in the mode of Andy Grove. Only the paranoid survive.

If she is as playful and laissez-faire at UF as she is at UCF, I would be praying to Allah !

74

@SteyrFWB
Im happy she is enjoying everything ucf has to offer!!
But I would bet she would never tell anyone BMS was easy or not competitive…cause it’s not…it prepares you for that mcat and pushes those who want that GPA.

Congratulations!

Now I will slink back into my third-tier hobbit hole and be quiet. Go knights.

75

You got to know your kids.

I know mine, she ALWAYS bend academically, but never break.

When she was ruminating where to go for college, down to two, MIT vs UCF, I intentionally got out of her way.

I was thinking myself as an open minded father. Decision is yours.

Men, am I open minded.

She decided on UCF.

It wasn’t until a few days later, my wife told me " Did you know your daughter cried very hard at night by herself going through this?"

It was then, I cried.

76

How could you not???

Peeking my head out…its very hard. I let my kids pick between uf, ucf and um.

Neither regrets their choice. Nor do I. Both have been challenged, both have succeeded. I am proud!! As I’m sure is everyone else on this thread.

So in reality, most thrive with no regrets. It’s a good thing!!
Skol!!!

77

Reminded me of my favorite movie Chariot of Fire.

Eric Liddel was asked of whether he had any regret for not running the 200m on Sunday. He looked into ocean horizon, looked back, and said, “Yea, but NO doubt though.”

Life is full of "what if " type of tinge regrets.

But it is resolute, “no doubt, though” that carries the day.

78

@SteyrFWB, you are an interesting writer opening up emotionally on CC. But it seems that something complex is going on here. You went on to Harvard Medical School, the #1 ranked medical school, and continued climbing all the way to being a professor at Harvard, and you are writing here on your alma mater’s site for UF, a school ranked #42 for undergrad and #41 for medical school, about how happy you are for your daughter who is going to UCF, a school ranked #171 for undergrad and #86 for medical school. It’s always good to see parents so proud of their kids, but most parents brag up, not down. Maybe there is more to the story.

Anyway, to reply to your post about the % of UF students that apply to medical school who also get accepted, you used the statistic fairly to compare UF’s medical-school acceptable rate fairly as a comparison to the national average of the same number. But, like all statistics, you known that this number can be manipulated. Maybe UF manipulates theirs, but some schools withhold recommendations or advise some students not to apply to medical school in order to make their statistic look better. Regardless, this average has nothing to do with any individual’s chance of getting accepted into medical school. My son fully expects to get into a Top 10 medical school despite the average acceptance rate for UF undergrads. By the way, do you know what UCF’s % is?

Instead of talking about school averages, this post has been about a NMF and her chance of getting into medical school if she gets a 3.75 GPA and a 512 on the MCAT. I am quite confident that we could get a subset of Florida’s 800+ applicants to medical school who met all three of these criteria – just like your daughter – and I would bet that the % who were accepted would be near 100%.

I’ve read where xxyyzz00, who is OOS, was first interested in UF, but then she discovered UCF. Perhaps she viewed UCF with the surprise or intrigue similar to finding a hidden gem. Well, here in Florida we are all aware of Florida’s big, public colleges including UCF. We know their reputations and the quality of our friends or friend’s kids who go there. I also know how smart kids view the schools because my son goes to the highest-ranked, public high school in the state where all the kids who go there test as being gifted. I’ve had at least one child there since 2002. While most of the school’s graduates go out of state, of those who stay in-state, the plurality go to UF. Next, at a little more than half the number of kids who go to UF, are the kids who go to FSU. Then, at maybe half that number, are the kids who go to UCF and USF.

But UF does not accept all of the high school’s kids. Only UF has the real data, but we guess that UF accepts about 75% of the class despite all the students’ being gifted. Of those who get accepted to UF and stay in-state, the easy majority go to UF. Nevertheless, it’s the perception that a healthy % of those headed to FSU actually prefer FSU over UF if they are accepted to both, but the perception of the UCF and USF students is that they were not accepted to UF. Most of the kids get accepted to FSU, USF, and UCF if they apply, so their choice between those schools is entirely up to them. Looking at years of college selections that the kids have made, the bottom line is that UCF has only minimal following at Florida’s top public high school.

@SteyrFWB, after I have finished reading your creative-writing posts, I sometimes find myself asking “Where’s the beef?” If you still feel that UCF is the better school, propose some more specific areas that we can all discuss.

79

I agree the UF v. UCF comparison doesn’t make any sense if you take each university only.
The comparison isn’t UF to UCF however, but honors program to honors college - honors colleges have their own rankings, separate from their university’s, and linked to honors-students-only stats, support, and outcomes. While Burnett is not top 5 nationally, it does rank very high in terms of honors colleges in the US and much higher than UF’s. Attending Burnett IS considered just a step below Barrett and above the well-known UA honors college.
UF is in the process of revamping its honors offerings since it wants to attract OOS students, who can find better honors colleges elsewhere if that’s what they want, although Benacquisto+ top public university is a very attractive option depending on what students want. The experience will be different at both but both are valid choices for OOS students.

80

Has society reached the point where we can’t reconcile the concept of “better”? Come on people, can you not admit to yourself by using rational comparison data and trends (actually provide wisdom) that when two things are compared, based upon what is being compared, one is better.

Thinking UF isn’t better than UCF is like saying UVA isn’t better than UF, is like saying Carnegie Mellon isn’t better than UVA, is like saying Harvard isn’t better than CM. Yes, there may be specific items that balance the scale, but in general and by using lots of criteria (quality of students, selectivity, quality of professors, resources, alumni, recruiting, national / global recognition, etc.) there is better. That’s OK. Better is what we should all be striving for.

UF is better than UCF. That doesn’t mean you can’t do well with a UCF degree and it also doesn’t mean being a Gator assures success. That is primarily up to the student and what they do with the available resources.

Just be honest with yourself. Better is better.

Can’t imagine why someone who has been so successful to this point would be consumed with not being successful at UF. Yes it will be difficult. So what? Lots of things are difficult. You do them, you gain experience and you move on.

You can do this!