UK undergraduate and US Medical School?

Pre-Med & Medical School Foreign Medical Education
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<p>Hey guys, I'm a senior in a US high school, and would like to go to college in the UK (edinburgh or King's college london)! My only inhibition is whether or not I will get into medical school in the US (because I've really wanted to be a doctor my whole life). I was wondering whether going to school in the UK makes it harder to pursue a career in medicine in the US later, or if it makes only a slight difference. Has anyone else done this before? What were the results? Btw, I am a US citizen. </p>

<p>Thanks-
Nik</p>

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<p>I answered your question in your other thread. Did you read my reply? Or did you just not like my answer and are seeking a second opinion?</p>

<p>There are serious drawbacks to attending a UK university for undergrad. </p>

<p>1) All US allopathic medical school require applicants to have earned a minimum of 90 credits at an accredited US or Canadian college or university. UVA claims it will consider a UK degree on a case-by-case basis; however, the reality is they haven’t accepted an applicant without 90 US credits since the 1990s.</p>

<p>2) Neither AMCAS not TMDSAS will verify international transcripts. This includes transcripts from UK universities. Without a verified transcript, your application will not be forwarded to med schools for consideration.</p>

<p>3) Both allopathic and osteopathic medical schools expected applicants to have completed a hundred or more hours of clinical volunteering & physician shadowing done in US healthcare sites before submitting an application.</p>

<p>**There are small number of osteopathic medical schools which will consider international undergrad degrees on a case-by-case basis. Please check the requirements of each specific school for details.</p>

<p>~~~</p>

<p>There are 2 alternatives if you really want to attend a UK uni:</p>

<p>1) do pre-med post-bacc program after you graduate and return to the US. A post-bacc will take about 2 years full time to complete and will require you to take/retake all your science and writing/English pre-reqs. </p>

<p>2) attend a medical school in the EU, graduate, take (and pass) the USMLE exams and enter the NRMP to obtain a US medical residency. Both the USMLE exams and a US medical residency are required in order to receive a US medical license.</p>

<p>The second option is the more perilous one. The number of available medical residencies has been more or less capped since the late 1990s. With all the new med schools opening and the unification of MD & DO residency match, the number of US med school grads will equal or exceed the number of residency slots around 2018. It will be increasingly difficult (read: almost impossible) for IMGs (international medical grads), even those with US citizenship, to match.</p>

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<p>@WayOutWestMom
Sorry I just realized I put that post in the wrong thread so I decided to repost it here. Was looking for some other opinions as well! If I complete my undergrad in the UK, all while finishing the volunteer work and research in the states, do you think it would help me get in? Perhaps I could do the post graduate program. What about just becoming a physician in the UK? Would that allow me to practice in all the commonwealth countries? The reason I ask this is because I plan on leaving the US anyway ( I just want the best education, don’t really care about the money).</p>

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<p>Into a US medical school…no. The issue of the mandatory 90 credits remains. In order to be eligible for admission to a US medical school, you must have completed a minimum of 90 credits, including all science, math and writing pre-reqs, at a US or Canadian college or university.** </p>

<p>** For medical schools requiring social science pre-reqs—these too must be completed at a US or Canadian college or university.</p>

<p>BTW, the best post-bacc pre med programs are structured to include both research and clinical volunteering. These programs are expensive, often $60+K/year plus living expenses. If you plan to go this route, please be aware that there is no financial aid for post-baccs except for unsub fed loans ($12,500/year) and private loans.</p>

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<p>I am not an expert on UK medical licensing, but it’s my understanding that non-EU, non-Commonwealth citizens/permanent residents cannot be licensed to practice medicine in the UK. </p>

<p>Each country has its own unique education and licensing requirements. Becoming a licensed physician in one country will not grant you automatic licensing in another. You may be required to demonstrate language proficiency, to take additional coursework and standardized national exams, or (more commonly) be required to retrain by completing another medical residency. </p>

<p>For example, a physician trained in the UK who wishes to practice in Australia will need to pass a standardized national exam, and then may only work in supervised public hospital positions for a minimum of 12 months at which time he may receive a license or be required to complete additional training.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Registration/International-Medical-Graduates/Competent-Authority-Pathway.aspx”>http://www.medicalboard.gov.au/Registration/International-Medical-Graduates/Competent-Authority-Pathway.aspx&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A physician trained in the UK, cannot be practice in Canada without taking the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Exam (MCCEE), plus or more additional standardized examinations, then enter residency match and complete a Canadian residency. Both the exams and residency are required to obtain a medical license.</p>

<p><a href=“http://mcc.ca/about/mcc-and-route-to-licensure/licensure-process-for-imgs/”>http://mcc.ca/about/mcc-and-route-to-licensure/licensure-process-for-imgs/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Wayoutwestmom - a few important corrections. A non-EU citizen who studies Medicine in the UK CAN practice in the UK as according to this document. <a href=“Overseas health professionals | Health Careers”>Overseas health professionals | Health Careers;

<p>Second of all, the number of US residency positions is not capped. This is a common misconception, but Medicare allows for an increase in the number of spots every year. Last year the number of positions grew by 2000 spots and has been growing year over year. There is no shortage and a UK educated grad with the appropriate USMLE score and US electives should have no problems matching, although the prestige of the residency program may be limited and the choices available specialty wise will also be limited. </p>

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<p>The “increase” is a result of an ‘accounting adjustment’ and is not really an increase in the number of available positions. Last year NRMP required an “all in” for residency programs–either they offered all of their programs and positions thru the NRMP are they were entirely excluded from participating in the Match. Prior to last year a small group of specialties (urology, opthalmology, derm) held their own private matches and did not enter their residency slots into the general match. That is no longer permitted.</p>

<p><a href=“http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f466940e4ec38ed51af32994bc6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/NRMP-First-Year-Graduate-Medical-Education-in-the-United-States-2002-20131.pdf”>http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f466940e4ec38ed51af32994bc6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/NRMP-First-Year-Graduate-Medical-Education-in-the-United-States-2002-20131.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>In fact, if you look at the NRMP data, you’ll see the number of year-to-year increases has been small, typically a few hundred per year at most. Thats’s not enough to keep up with the number of new MD and DO programs coming online and producing grads.</p>

<p>The number of Medicare funded positions essentially has not changed since 1999. Any increase in residency training positions are because these positions are either state funded (our state governor just signed a bill to fund 7 additional resident positions in FM yesterday) or NIH funded. </p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/advocacy/gme/71178/gme_gme0012.html”>https://www.aamc.org/advocacy/gme/71178/gme_gme0012.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>NIH funded residency spots are in a precarious position since the NIH had it budget severely reduced (close to 35% total) twice in the last 2 years and many research programs are being defunded, including those which support resident training positions.</p>

<p>The number of state funded residency training positions lag behind the number of medical grad produced by each state. TX, for example, would need to fund an additional 500 residency training positions just accommodate every medical graduate it produces each year.</p>

<p>The availability of US rotation positions for non-US students has come under scrutiny and in some places (NY,NJ, TX) legislation is being drafted to prohibit any hospital that receives public funds from accepting any fees for training non US educated med students for clinical rotations. I don’t know if you understand how clinical rotation are arranged? Students do clinicals either at their own institution and its associated hospitals/clinics or at an institution with which the sending school has a reciprocal agreement. Basically every US allopathic medical school has a reciprocity agreement with every other school (and their associated hospitals) in the US. Students ( who attend a medical school that does not participate in the reciprocity pay a fee (typically in the $3000-$15000 range per student per rotation) to the receiving hospital. Since training a student during a clinical rotation costs a hospital thousands of dollars, there’s no reason why any hospital would accept a non-reciprocal student without any reimbursement for its expenses.</p>

<p>Currently only half of ECFMG-eligible IMGs match into any residency, even after multiple attempts. IMGs who want to match in US residencies need to have significantly higher USMLE scores than US educated med grads need to match into the same specialty & location.</p>

<p>I stand by my assertion–IMGs who want to return and practice in the US face increasing competition for a limited number of residency positions. Please see these articles:</p>

<p><a href=“http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200”>http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1306445?viewType=Print&viewClass=Print&”>http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1306445?viewType=Print&viewClass=Print&&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The NEJM article details the sharp increase in DO school enrollment due to the opening of new schools (over 125% since 2005). Since the ACGME and AOA have reached an accord unifying the DO and MD residency match, this means there will be even more competition for a limited number of residency positions.</p>

<p>By 2017, there will be over 28,000 new US medical grads entering the match. Unless Congress or various state legislatures sharply increase the funding for residency training, the number of US grads will exceed the number of available residency positions (~27,000).</p>

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<p>My daughter is an American and she has been accepted into St Andrews University Faculty of Science to study biology. She wants to apply to American medical schools after she graduates. If I am reading this correctly, she would need 90 semester credits from an accredited American university before she could apply to medical school? And these credits would need to be in science? What is the source of this info? If this information is accurate, I feel bad for her because she really wants to attend St Andrews, but this would make it impractical. What about applying to American universities for post-graduate work in biology, or the life sciences? Would the same restriction apply? Or is that just to medical schools?</p>

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<p>You can find the details of specific academic requirements for admission (including the requirement for US/Canadian coursework) on the individual school admission websites. (Google Name of School + SOM + Admission requirements). The same info can found in the MSAR. (Subscription required for access) For TX schools, read the requirements for US/Canadian coursework on the TMDSAS application website.</p>

<p>RE: Amcas won’t verfiy foreign transcripts (including those from the UK), see:</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf”>https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>A few DO schools (IIRC ~6-7) will consider foreign coursework, but you will need to check AACOMAS and individual school admission website to find out which ones and check for any other requirement they have re: non-US/Non-Canadian coursework.</p>

<p>Having a international degree is less of an issue for grad school since research experience, publications, LORs from research advisors and upper level science professors, GRE score and grades in upper level science electives are much more important that the name of the school on the diploma.</p>

<p>Your D should be aware that the future for biological science PhDs is bleak. (And has been for the last 20+ years.) There is huge oversupply of bioscience PhDs and not enough jobs for all of them. Fewer than 30% end up in academic positions or industry research jobs. And qualifying for one of those job often means several rounds of post-doccing. Bioscience post-docs are woefully underpaid. (High school teachers make more money!) </p>

<p><a href=“Supply-side academics | Nature Neuroscience”>http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v10/n11/full/nn1107-1337.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/the-wages-of-a-life-science-ph-d-not-high/#.U1_VJsZr5g0”>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/the-wages-of-a-life-science-ph-d-not-high/#.U1_VJsZr5g0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;