UM vs USC

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
1

We live in the SF Bay Area and D has been accepted into liberal arts at both schools. Since we are OOS and she got some merit money at USC, cost will be about the same. She is torn. On the one hand, she expects to come back to CA after college, so wants to experience something different at UM and really liked it when she visited (not in winter). On the other hand, she likes that USC is more diverse, has CA connections for jobs, has smaller undergrad and seems focused on getting kids out in four years. Many of her friends’ parents have turned her off by talking about the (outdated) reputation as USC as being for spoiled rich kids. I believe USC’s reputation is getting better and suspect that over the next decade it will continue to do so. I also get the sense that the UM student body has just as many wealthy kids as USC since half the kids are OOS. True?

Anyone with experience at both schools? How would you compare the culture at each school? Is there a tension between OOS and in-state at UM? Others from CA have any culture shock or depression/issues with the weather at UM?

2

“On the other hand, she likes that USC is more diverse”

I am not sure that is accurate without qualifying the statement. Both universities have large in-state student populations (60% at Michigan and 70% at USC). They each have student populations that reflect their respective state’s population.

“has CA connections for JOBS”

That makes sense, but let us also remember that a far larger number of USC graduates seek employment in CA. Also, while USC clearly has an edge in connections in SoCa, it does not have the edge in the Bay area, where Michigan enjoys an equally lofty reputation and a large alumni network.

“has smaller undergrad”

That is just a technicality. USC has 19,000 undergraduate students and 23,000 graduate students, while Michigan has 28 undergraduate students and 15,000 graduate students. Both universities have 43,000 students total.

“and seems focused on getting kids out in four years.”

Neither Michigan, nor USC, is famous for graduating their students in four years (74% of Michigan undergraduate students graduate in four years at Michigan, compared to 78% at USC). That is not a bad thing mind you. Stanford’s four-year graduation rate is 76%. Universities with large Engineering student populations tend to have lower four-year graduation rates.

“Many of her friends’ parents have turned her off by talking about the (outdated) reputation as USC as being for spoiled rich kids. I believe USC’s reputation is getting better and suspect that over the next decade it will continue to do so.”

USC, like NYU and BU, is very much a product of its own location, and I am not sure it can ever overcome that. Many students go to USC purely for its location. USC does not have many top 25 academic departments, nor does it have a history of academic excellence. The main draw is its reputation for being a fun school in a city filled with clubs and celebrities. This is purely an image mind you. As you aptly point out, USC has a gifted student body, and many of its students are very serious about their education.

“I also get the sense that the UM student body has just as many wealthy kids as USC since half the kids are OOS. True?”

Wealthy, yes, but their motives for going to Michigan are, for the most part, academic. Most Michigan departments are ranked among the top 10 in the nation, and Michigan has a long history of academic excellence. By the mid 19th century, Michigan was already considered a model for US universities. In 1900, Michigan was a one of the founding members of the American Association of Universities, along with 11 other elite universities at the time (Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Penn, Princeton, Stanford, Wisconsin-Madison and Yale). OSS students do not typically go to Michigan for the trendy nightlife, beaches and balmy weather. :wink:

“Anyone with experience at both schools?”

Admittedly, I only have experience with Michigan.

“How would you compare the culture at each school?”

I am not qualified to compare cultures, because I am not sufficiently well versed in USC culture to make the comparison. But I can speak to Michigan’s culture, and it is fairly broad. In general, Michigan’s culture tends to be intellectual in a laid back sort of way, with students savoring the University’s liberal/activist leaning, artistic fondness, active social environment, unusually strong school spirit/alumni loyalty and rich athletic tradition. In short, Michigan is well rounded. I think USC is similar in this respect.

“Is there a tension between OOS and in-state at UM?”

Why would there be? Michigan is actually a very welcoming place. OOS students are 40% of the student body (not including the large international student population). At USC, only 30% of students come from OOS. At Michigan, California residents are the fourth highest represented (after Michigan, New York and Illinois).

http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/admitted-student-profile

“Others from CA have any culture shock or depression/issues with the weather at UM?”

Typically, most students at Michigan really enjoy their experience. That does not mean that no student experiences shock or depression, but for the most part, students tend to be happy.

One interesting aspect is institutional wealth and budget. Michigan and USC are identical in size, but Michigan’s endowment is more than twice the size of USC’s ($9.6 billion vs $4.6 billion), and that does not even factor in the $300 million that Michigan receives from the state (which is the equivalent to an additional $6 billion in endowment). Michigan’s annual operating budget is $6.6 billion, compared to USC’s $3.9 billion. As an institution, Michigan is both much wealthier than USC, and has a much larger budget to work with.

3

According to http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/docs/USCFreshmanProfile.2014.pdf, about 45% students at USC are from California.

4

Truefalse, that link only shows Freshmen student demographics. USC has very large transfer classes too, so perhaps the majority of transfers are residents of California. Most sources I have seen show that 70% of USC undergrads are California residents.

5

My son is a freshman at Michigan. I don’t have experience with USC except that my son did turn it down in favor of Michigan. We are from Arizona and my son had never experienced cold weather before. There were some really cold days but I don’t think it bothered him that much. I would tease him that he could have been at USC on the really cold days but I don’t think he has regretted it at all. As for wealthy, I have found that the guys on his floor never want to spend any money; I wish they would go out to eat from time to time but they don’t seem to do so. So in his experience it isn’t a bunch of wealthy kids. My other son went to Wash U where I think the kids might be wealthier, but they were down to earth also so I am not so sure that would be a problem with USC (but I do not know). I cannot believe there is any tension between being OOS and in state at Michigan. No one really cares as far as I can see.

6

You may also want to consider the possibility of changing majors. If you ever want to change majors, in general, it is usually easier to do so in private schools than in public schools.

7

While I admittedly come from another time and place, it is very hard for me to imagine a serious student turning down Michigan’s academic strengths for those of USC (with similar COA), unless one is choosing a standout discipline at USC, such as film. I am well aware of how USC has climbed in the undergraduate rankings over the years, and yes, it now attracts some very good students. No arguments there. If there is a specific program or discipline in which your D would clearly benefit, I’d have no hesitation recommending USC.

I attended undergrad and grad school in the midwest, and also lived in CA. I would personally not permit the weather or location dissuade your D from an excellent educational experience, especially at such a young age.

As for wealth, Michigan should feel like a wider range of incomes, particularly with regard to in-state students. USC many years ago used to have a nickname, University of Spoiled Children. The moniker no longer obtains; that said, the location, private structure, and appeal of USC still favors a somewhat wealthier demographic. USC has also offered some strong aid to top students, so certainly not all will be rich by any means.

I agree with Alexandre’s analogies re: university peers, not the least because it takes a long-term, historical approach. Michigan is indeed a strong founding member of the AAU (as most all are in that grouping). USC is more akin to private (major) metropolitan universities such as NYU and BU. They have their strengths, and they benefit from their locations. They were not perceived as the academic elite one century ago, but their recruiting (I speak of faculty, though it also applies to students) and investments have boosted their reputations in the last few decades.

8

I have not any problem in changing major at UMich, except those that have specific requirement.

9

“Neither Michigan, nor USC, is famous for graduating their students in four years (74% of Michigan undergraduate students graduate in four years at Michigan, compared to 78% at USC). That is not a bad thing mind you. Stanford’s four-year graduation rate is 76%. Universities with large Engineering student populations tend to have lower four-year graduation rates.”

Alexandre: these are my takes…

  1. a school’s 4-year graduation rate reflects student wealth: do they have the money to take enough courses to finish on time?;

  2. a school’s 4-year graduation rate reflects institutional wealth: does the school have enough market power to raise tuition enough to hire enough instructors to make enough courses available to allow students to enroll in those courses and thus graduate on time?;

  3. Michigan is susceptible in part to the first dynamic, but not all to the second. As a result, my take is that this is harmful to the reputation of public schools, but is highly uncorrelated with academic quality and almost purely correlated with wealth;

  4. given #3, I think this is a crappy measure of quality and really bifurcates the population into two cohorts…public versus private…and unfairly impacts the rankings of publics;

  5. were I a parent concerned with selecting a good school, I’d try to find out what the true driver of the rate was; if the true driver is wealth and I’ve got the money and my child has the ambition to take a full course load, I’d completely strip the graduation rate out of my calculus;

  6. to my mind a more important number is freshman retention…a true measure of whether a child is happy with his choice and believes he is or can thrive at the school…in that respect, Michigan’s rate is something like 96% or 97%; that high number suggests that Michigan and its matriculants feel very very well matched; that level of match should encourage kids to attend if accepted;

10

While I agree with the importance of freshman retention rate, the four year graduation rate is many times impacted by majors such as Engineering that are more apt to take longer than four years.

That is why schools with a high concentration of Engineering majors have lower four year grad rates. While wealth helps in that the student won’t have to to go to school part time in order to also work, it’s further down the drivers of a lower 4 year grad rate.

11

I would not worry if over 75% of students graduating within 4 years. There are many reason one may not finish in 4 years such as overseas exchange program, co-op, switching major after sophomore year, double major, etc. I would worry if a school has further lower percentage of students graduating within 4 years such as Wisconsin (near 50%).

12

“You may also want to consider the possibility of changing majors. If you ever want to change majors, in general, it is usually easier to do so in private schools than in public schools.”

In this regard, Michigan is like a private university. It is easy to switch majors. The only “difficult” transfer is to Ross. Switching from the CoE to LSA is automatic. Switching from LSA to the CoE is automatic is the student has taken the required courses and maintained a 3.0 GPA. Switching majors within the CoE is easy (depends on GPA, but with the exception of BME, a 3.0 GPA is usually sufficient) and switching majors within LSA is automatic, with the exception of PPE, which can be difficult.

13

Thanks for all of the thoughts. Reputation-wise, especially historically and out of the US, I think Michigan wins, but I do think that is changing as USC has been very focused on attracting stronger students and faculty. I actually think schools like USC and NYU will continue to improve their reputation and ranking.

However one wants to qualify it, USC does have a more diverse student population. Whether the in-state number is 45% or 70%, it is from a much larger, more diverse state. While the total student population is similar, the USC freshman class is about half of UM.

The info on switching majors is helpful as she doesn’t know what she wants to do yet. How about getting into required classes? That is one of the issues at the UCs that makes it difficult to graduate on time.

The reason I asked about tension between OOS and in-state is that the UCs have been increasing OOS for the extra revenue, which has caused some friction with in-state students not being able to get in. Not the case at UM?

Thanks 2135. That’s good to know that your son has not been bothered by the weather. I grew up in and went to college in the midwest and am now a wimp.

14

“Reputation-wise, especially historically and out of the US, I think Michigan wins, but I do think that is changing as USC has been very focused on attracting stronger students and faculty. I actually think schools like USC and NYU will continue to improve their reputation and ranking.”

While that may be true (by no means certain) the rate at which Michigan is improving (tangibly since reputationally, Michigan cannot really improve from its current top 10 reputation position) is outpacing USC. I have not seen any evidence of USC gaining on Michigan, except in rankings that use a flawed methodology that USC (and other private universities) is purposely gaming. I wonder, in the US News ranking, does USC include any of its 24,000 graduate students in its student to faculty ratio? Michigan includes USC is very good, but it is not elite like Michigan, nor is it likely to become anytime soon.

“However one wants to qualify it, USC does have a more diverse student population. Whether the in-state number is 45% or 70%, it is from a much larger, more diverse state.”

Racially, there is no doubt that USC is more diverse, but not geographically. Michigan has as many international students as USC, and more students from the east coast and midwest than USC.

“While the total student population is similar, the USC freshman class is about half of UM.”

Does it matter if USC enrolls 3,000 transfers annually when it also enrolls another 2,500-3,000 transfers annually? Could it be yet another ploy to make itself look good in the rankings by showing more selective admission figures by enrolling is tiny freshman class relative to the overall size of the university? Regardless, in total, USC has 19,000 undergraduate students and over 43,000 students in total. It is not noticeably smaller than Michigan at the undergraduate level, and it is just as large as Michigan overall.

“The info on switching majors is helpful as she doesn’t know what she wants to do yet. How about getting into required classes? That is one of the issues at the UCs that makes it difficult to graduate on time.”

Michigan’s endowment is greater than Cal+UCLA+UCSD combined! :wink: Michigan’s endowment is also more than twice larger than USC’s, not including state funding (if you do, Michigan’s operates as a university with an endowment almost 4 times larger than USC’s). As such, Michigan does not have the same resource scarcity as the UCs and USC. Getting into classes the first semester can be tricky (most first term freshmen get into all of the classes they want, but probably not in the timings that they would prefer), but after their first semester, Michigan students do not usually have trouble getting into the classes that they want.

“The reason I asked about tension between OOS and in-state is that the UCs have been increasing OOS for the extra REVENUE, which has caused some friction with in-state students not being able to get in. Not the case at UM?”

That’s a good point. Michigan has always been more than 30% OOS, and the state’s population is actually declining. As such, there is not much tension between in-state and OOS students on campus…afterall, students on campus were admitted. Perhaps in other parts of the state, some students may feel slighted by Michigan’s rejection in favor of OOS students, but not in Ann Arbor.

15

You’re probably right, Michigan’s **** is bigger than Cal’s + extension campuses. However, just doing a little fact checking: are you including the UC general endowment or just the individual campus endowments?

Keep in mind, Berkeley’s endowment doesn’t support a medical campus. Berkeley’s medical campus is called UCSF. :stuck_out_tongue:

16

UCB, I was their total endowment (regents and foundation). According to the UC annual endowment report:

Cal: $3.9 billion
UCLA: $3.2 billion
UCSD: $750 million

http://www.ucop.edu/investment-office/_files/report/UC_Annual_Endowment_Report_FY2013-2014.pdf (page 4)

17

Out of curiosity, what annual amount does University of Michigan-Ann Arbor receive from the state? Berkeley receives ~$320 million annually from the state of CA (2013-14 budget numbers). If you assume a conservative 4% annual draw rate from an endowment to supply those funds, that’s essentially an endowment of $8B.

18

Michigan receives $275 million when I last checked.

19

I don’t know how credible U.S. News is, but it shows the 2013 endowments as $8,272,366,000 for Michigan and $3,472,913,000 for Berkeley.

20

^ Nice…that helps support the medical school :slight_smile: