This is starting to feel like that “Should we feel sorry for Harvard kids” thread…
Mozilla2d, I think you raise some interesting points, and love that you thinking quantitiatively. To the comment on Niche, it is simply the best data source I have access too. It may not be perfect, but the sample sizes would be good enough for most. The real question is are they random enough the represent the entire population of likely outcomes (I can not say). However, the Pioneer Institute study reported on by NPR quantified the IS v OOS numbers (but not by major). OOS students accepted to UMassA have lower GPAs and Scores (not in dispute, I hope).
The UMass data source that you cite (https://www.umass.edu/oir/sites/default/files/publications/factsheets/select_undergrad_stats/FS_sel_01.pdf), is great but it leaves out many rows of data which can illuminate this situation.
So, there are a few intereting trends. The precent of white (non -ALANA, non-URM) goes from 70% to 50% over the ten years. And the percent of international students enrolled goes from 1.2% to 7.7% over these ten years. Exactly 390 more entering Freshman international students in 2019, compared to 2010.
I suspect the growth in ALANA and URM are confounded with growth in International students, i.e. the proportion of ALANA/URM students who are also international students is higher than the in-state, or rest of US applicant pools. This is an educated guess as the data is not borken out that way.
So, if I extrapolote 444 int’l students for 4 years, there will be over 1700 international students enrolled at UMass (in 2024) whose spots could have gone to domestic, or even in-state students.
What might come with hand-selected, international students: Higher tuition paid, higher GPAs, higher test scores, higher ALANA/URM rates. Again, if UMass would publish all data broken out by all categories, curious people could know for sure.
So, getting back to the mission of UMass. Why is increasing the number of international undergraduate (not graduate, where I completely understand why), at the expense of qualified in-state (especially) or domestice (US) students. As best I can tell, internation students have contributed nothing to the funding of UMass Amherst, until they show up and write there full tuition checks to the Bursar (~$2k more than a OOS student, $22K/yr more than IS).
So, what is this worth to UMass Amherst. Acepting 1700 internation students over in-state students would net $35M a year to the coffers of UMassA. OOS are not nearly as lucrative as many will receieve some form of merit scholarhsip (tuition discount). Pretty rare to find much tuition discounting going on for INTL students, even at Top 20 Nationals.
My other speculation is that UMassA takes the studnets they want in EA (based on stats, demographics, other “holistic” considerations), then they play the waiting game to see which of the hand-selected OOS and INTL students. The poor kids who need a high-quality, value college sit and wait their turn for OOS and INTLs to choose. [Note: I would love to know how many EA offers are made to INTL students, but it is not published]
Yes, table scraps may be available in May for the back-burner kids, but the process is poor and dehumanizing. First, they may these kids wait for the final traunch of EA decisions, only to be told that they have been waitlisted. Then are given no other option (second major, etc.) as this is not in the interest of bureacrats who are trying to maximize revenue and/or other “holistic” objectives in EA. Then they must put a deposit in for a another school, which, while it is likely to be a good school, will cost his/her parents much much more than UMass. Then they find out, in late May that they are Minuteman material afterall. This is the definition of a process that treats talented in-state applicants like poop.
If you are a parent of MS/HS student, dutifully paying your taxes to support UMass system, I hope you may be compelled to call your State Rep and ask for more answers. While I am tyring to help expose the issue (not have a pity party as tolls assert), I will not benefit from any policy changes which may result.
Good luck to all you “back burner” IS students!
Good luck to future applicants!
Please disregard the comment on white students (my assumption was that, white=total-ALANA-URM). UMASS seems to be double-counting URM as a subset of ALANA, making my estimate for white students potentially erroneous.
I think the takeaway is that UMass Amherst is no longer a safety school. Especially for the most competitive majors, such as CS (33% acceptance rate), Management (35%) or Nursing (11%!). Still, for the majority of high stat MA students applying to UMassA, odds are still very good. Overall, 64% of all MA students who apply are accepted. Higher in EA.
But for those students “who need a high-quality, value college”, consider applying to other state schools besides UMassA, especially if you are applying to one of the more competitive majors. And look for some out-of-state or private schools with good merit for OOS students.
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With respect to the report you referenced (https://www.wbur.org/edify/2018/05/29/out-of-state-admissions-to-umass), it is based on a study by the Pioneer Institute. Thought you may be interested in the full report, especially since they used data acquired through a public records request. Tangentially, they had a series of reports critical of UMass.
https://pioneerinstitute.org/featured/study-umass-amherst-admissions-standards-now-higher-for-ma-students-than-non-residents/
UMass issued a response to that Pioneer Institute study.
https://pioneerinstitute.org/download/differentiating-admission-standards-at-umass-amherst-to-meet-out-of-state-enrollment-targets/
They did not dispute the numbers, but did say this, with regard to the financial side…
It is studies such as this that will put pressure on UMass to make changes. Google “Pioneer Institute umass amherst admission” and you’ll see every major news organization in the area reported on it. Of course, the Pioneer study is 2 years old and based on data from 2010-2016, so hopefully that change has started. It would be good to see the Pioneer Institute do a follow up.
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Just found a report for CICS enrollment (google UAIR to find reports). The percent of OOS (did not break out INTL) has gone from 27% in 2010 (around current university-wide average) to 44% in 2019. It actually peaked at 51% OOS in 2018.
So, roughly half the enrollment, in the University’s most highly ranked UG program, are OOS. My guess based on other UMass reports on demographics (non college specific) is that the largest group is from China.
Tell me again how this is consistent with the mission of our public flagship university.
Why are taxpayers being asked to fund public universities which favor students over highly qualified in-state students.
disgusting
Too bad it’s not broken down by stats. For CS, I wonder if the stats are more balanced between IS and OOS, given the competitiveness of CS.
How does that 56/44 IS/OOS CS balance compare to the other OOS publics where your son was accepted? Would you have any hesitation with your son attending another state school as an OOS student if you felt they should have a higher % of IS?
I do not know about majors within the University, but here are few excellent public and total %OOS
UConn 24%
UFlorida 21%
UTexas 10% (regulated max)
In addition, I can I did a little more digging at the UMass UAIR site.
I looked at the trend in OOS at the three other “most competitive” majors at UMassA.
[%OOS]
Nursing
2010: 14%
2019: 16%
Management
2010: 28%
2019: 26%
Engineering
2010: 22%
2019: 23%
CS
2010: 27%
2018: 51% (WOW)
It is clear that CICS is the worst college at Umass for supporting the stated mission and the talented students from MA.
How is this policy justifiable? I would love to hear the CICS Dean and UMass President explain this practice to the talented IS applicant who was denied a spot in order to provide one to $52k/year paying international student. Then I would like them to explain why UMass needs taxpayers to support an educational system where the benefits go to international students, not to children of parents who support them.
“Would you have any hesitation with your son attending another state school as an OOS student if you felt they should have a higher % of IS?”
I do not believe any other OOS public university has any obligation to educate my son. They should first provide a high-value education to qualified in-state applicants.
I think systems like UTexas and UNC which prioritize in-state students have it right. I am not sure what is so controversial about this POV.
One more thought.
As far as I understand, public universities are prohibited from using financial need in admission decisions. Most private school are need-aware and can consider the strength of applicant AND ability to pay together in an admission decision.
It strikes me that when CICS admits a full-tuition paying international student over an equally qualified IS applicant (+$21K/yr) they are executing a need-aware decision, which is influenced directly based on the net revenue between the two applicants.
Sounds like the same thing to me.
I don’t think state residents compete with OOS or international applicants. I think each is its own bucket. So a state resident who’s waitlisted for CS may be accepted if a state resident turns down their offer, but not if an OOS or international student reject theirs.
@swampyankee consider that the state paid UMassA $364M a year to educate 17500 in state undergrads, I wonder if it maybe better off to let UMassA go private and give each in state student $20800 merit scholarship instead!
CICS is already acting like a need-aware, private! … not providing equal access to qualified, in-state applicants, in favor of those with higher ability to pay.
Formalizing it university-wide sounds reasonable since the University clearly approves of the practice.
Of course, MA does not just need another high quality private. High-value, high quality, and MA-based option is what flagship UMass is supposed to provide.
Better, to take its endowment and annual funding to create a scholarship fund, for ALL MA students who meet residency and qualification criteria.
The scholarship would be useable at any MA private college. Of course, the UMass facility can be sold to an emergent, new, private university. As a term of the deal, the new school could be required to provide a great deal to MA applicants (tuition at the average of other New England flagships)
…all sales proceeds would feed the scholarship fund.
I agree that it is frustrating when lots of high caliber in-state students are being denied over out of state. Funding is the real issue and the state budget is not moving in that direction. Here’s a slightly dated Boston Mag article on the subject: https://www.bostonmagazine.com/education/2018/05/30/umass-amherst-admissions/
I also think focusing just on statistics can’t tell the whole picture. I think the entire system is flawed and overly focused on building a child’s “resume” starting in elementary school. Maybe admissions counselors are looking for more unique students and less of the “robot/formula” type of student? Not sure, but I’ve been following posts from North Carolina State with similar frustrations and they only accept 18% out of state students. Ultimately most kids will land where they will succeed. Best wishes to all!
@swampyankee What percentage of applicants from your son’s Top 20 high school, with equal stats and resume, bother to apply to UMass? Of those that do apply, what percentage actually enrolls at UMass?
For CS, Eng, and Nursing, there are many top students who apply, and ultimately attend. Also, UMassA is the top destination for the HS overall.
Sadly, I know of a few other “top students” who applied EA CS and were denied (i.e., waitlisted with a <1.7% likelihood of being offered admission).
Of course, where one chooses to enroll, is as much a decision based on family finances as much as anything.
I know of one highly qualified rejected EA CS applicant, whose parents will have 4 children in college next year. Totally sucks that a great value option was stolen from that family in favor of an international student.
The premise of the question seems to imply that top students from top (/well-heeled) districts, only apply to UMassA for a safety or for ego/vanity.
This is simply untrue. And, even if it were true, would it make UMassA CICS admission team’s tossing their outstanding applications in the trash, OK?
The OOS funding argument doesn’t add up. My son didn’t need financial, aid, has higher stats and still got rejected.
Was your son an in-state applicant? If so, the incentive for UMassA to accept and OOS/Int over your son is around $20k/yr, $80k/4yrs. (No aid scenario)
Another way to think about this is to ask how many more IS students would have been accepted, this year, if UMassA held the OOS for CS at 2010 levels (27%), instead of promoting policies which favor OOS/INTL for $21k/yr (40-50% OOS)? The answer is, another (estimated) 65-70 IS applicants would be enrolled for CS in class of 2024. 4yrs x 70 students/yr x 21k/OOS-student…overall, $$$ incentive is $5.9M/yr for currently enrolled CS OOS/INT profile.
…the only successful EA CS applicant from my son’s HS had perfect test score (1600/36) and 4.5+GPA.
Sound crazy? Of course, it is!
yes, my son is in state and I have been a MA tax payer for 30+ years!
with my son’s stats, he has good chance of getting merit award if he is OOS, so the OOS incentive doesn’t add up either.
UMassA is simply penalizing in state applicants!
you need to remember that the current freshman CS class has average SAT of 1431 and GPA of 4.15! I really doubt the 2020 freshman class suddenly jump to 1550 and 4.5!
What is sad is how many people (on the CC board): (bad) refuse to acknowlege it, (worse) rationalize/defend it, and (worst) blame the very talented victims…
Something tells me, it is likely to get much worse, before it gets better.
You’re entitled to your opinion.
Every year, there are parents (it’s usually not the students themselves, interestingly) who don’t understand the concept of “holistic admissions” and are angry that their children weren’t admitted.
There was a whole Purdue thread and even one almost a decade ago about MIT - same ideas.
It’s not (only) that we disagree with you, @swampyankee, it’s that we’ve heard this all before.
If there were a widespread problem, then there wouldn’t be so many, many high-stats kids even here on CC who were admitted to U-MA early.
Because you won’t share your child’s other admissions data, we have no way of knowing if this really was a student who had a chance to get into U-MA.